America's Grandiosity Complex

David (00:52) And we are on, we are in, this is it. Episode one, officially starting. Shrink the Nation, on the couch with America. Welcome, beloved guests, beloved co-hosts, three psychiatrists, three bourbons, I think. I'm bourbon. Rob's got bourbon, Keith maybe, he's got bourbon or he's got something brown in his something. Keith (01:12) I do. David (01:12) He's got something. One nation in desperate need of therapy and we are here to provide that. That is the goal. I'm excited. This is gonna be fun. And. There you go. So welcome. Welcome to everybody. Everybody. I am I'm David. Just to give you a little rundown of who I am. 20 plus years in the military. 10 plus years as a physician. I am the in-house tech junkie. I am the converter to Apple fandom. You're welcome, Rob. Rob (01:38) Mm-hmm. David (01:39) Sorry about that. Apologies. And today I am drinking Jefferson's Reserve. The very old Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey, a very small batch, which apparently means eight to 12 barrels. And which is pretty cool. It tastes a lot like the other bourbons that I've had. We'll see if it tastes a lot more like them, the more that I've had, but I like it so far. I'm going to throw this one over to throw it to Rob. Rob (02:02) All right. I'm Rob. 25 years as a psychiatrist, 30 years in the military. I am drinking Snake Eater bourbon, which is a small batch bourbon made in Kentucky. David (02:18) but is it very small batch? Rob (02:19) Sure. Made by, or the company started in 2018 by a an ex-green beret and named after the snake eater moniker that the green berets have. It is a weeded bourbon, which I tend to avoid, but the history of the bourbon drew me in. David (02:39) There you go. Rob (02:39) Keith! David (02:40) So after complaining about the weeded bourbons loving the ride. wait, what was the percentage of corn? You didn't talk about the corn percentage this time. Rob (02:46) no yet this one this one this one is like sixty sixty two percent corn David (02:51) Wow, that's a lot of corn. Rob (02:53) yet well you know most of the rise or in the seventies and then you have your ten percent rye and ten percent barley whatever David (03:01) what percentage sweat because what I did notice is that Rob (03:04) Corn sweat. David (03:05) there's no corn sweat and I don't have a poster behind me you jackass Rob (03:08) Mm-mm. David (03:09) I was waiting all week for my my corn Rob (03:11) Yeah, I that. David (03:12) sweat poster that I did not get did not get I'm very disappointed Keith (03:14) And next week. Rob (03:16) Yeah, I did some Amazon looking for an appropriate corn sweat. What's his first name? Is it David? David (03:23) It is David. Rob (03:24) David Cornsweat. A poster for your wall. I thought it might be best suited for Keith's wall right behind his head. David (03:32) behind him for us to again project all of our hopes and dreams onto. Keith (03:37) Yeah, Rob (03:38) Absolutely. Keith (03:38) well, I'll jump into it. I'm Keith, otherwise known as the Duke of Burgundy. 24 years, physician, psychiatrist, and here to happy to be here with my two good friends and see what trouble we can't get into. Rob (03:50) or out of. David (03:51) Well, they are out of. Well, we will, we will do our best. Well, welcome. Keith (03:54) Yeah, mostly out of... David (03:56) Stay out of trouble. Welcome to everybody who is listening to us for the first time. If you have not had the misfortune of listening to our first couple of, mistrials. Go to our website. Maybe they'll be there. Maybe they won't. Maybe a professional organization or employer will have asked us to take them down by, by now, but who knows? We'll, we'll try to leave them up as long as we can shrink the nation.com. So what just, just because we are on episode one, let's run it down. Why are we here? What are we doing? What's this all about? Why, why listen to us when you could listen to anybody else talk about whatever the hell we're going to talk about. That's opinions. Rob (04:30) You know, think there's a difference. There's a difference between what we're talking about and what a majority of. And I think that's our goal here is not to be polarized, not to be on a side, but to talk about the dynamics that are driving each side. I know I'm here largely, well, one, to spend some time with my two dear friends. who i do not get spent enough time with but beyond that because that wouldn't driving too far but beyond that is that i i'm i'm i'm yeah i wouldn't that it's not was it's not not like i'm gonna go get on an airplane or anything Keith (05:02) Well, fuck you. Fuck you. David (05:04) This turns to... turns to that real quick. Yeah, fair enough. Keith (05:08) Alright. Rob (05:10) no this i'm i'm a member of the the exhausted middle i i don't understand fully what's going on around the nation. What drives us? I'm anxious about it. I'm anxious for my future, my kids' future. And anytime I'm sitting in a psychotherapy environment with other patients where I'm feeling anxious, there's usually questions to be answered and asked. And there's a story, there's a narrative to be defined. And I think there is a narrative here. And there is a story that we can we can add to. Keith (05:42) Yeah, I think. David (05:42) And to clarify, you mean as the psychiatrist, not as another patient. Yeah. So, Rob (05:47) I I do. David (05:49) okay. And maybe, having some, maybe another unique perspective, not just a psychiatrist, but one who has spent, as you already said, a significant amount of time in the military in some way, or form. as we all have, you know, Keith included who maybe didn't mention it, but has in spite of that fantastic just glorious beard that he's stroking that we all want to right now has also served Keith (06:11) Pretty good. David (06:12) our country. We all have so but I'll kick to Keith. Keith, what does it mean to you? Keith (06:16) Yeah, think Rob says it well. There is a pathology for the nation. This is an important time. think when we do look back, we will look back on this as a historic time, a defining time for our nation. And my hope, in addition to spending time with two people, I think a whole lot of partners in crime and all things, strategic, Mr. Drowdy give a different perspective and sense. of what's going on and yeah, we're not here to repeat talking points or politic that's done by others and done well and often of limited value. But, it's try to give, you know, regular people like us a sense of how to think about this, make sense through it and, and how to see it through the lens of, you know, three folks with a lot of experience in, in mental health and psychiatry and psychotherapy. And how does this apply to a larger, larger group? Like. like our nation. David (07:09) Right? Well, I will give you my take, if I may. I do agree. I like chatting with both of you. Not enough to actually take the time to get on a plane and visit either one of you yahoos. But certainly am willing to turn on a computer and do this this way. But no, in all seriousness, we're... We're all psychiatrists. We all have a unique perspective. We are not politicians. We do not, we're not here to, I'm not here, I guess I should say. I'm not here to tell anybody how to think. I'm not here to tell anybody how to vote. I'm not here to tell anybody how to believe or even how to run their lives. That's not really what I want to do. But what I do want to hopefully impart upon other people is just, some level of hope, some understanding of what's going on, a little bit of perspective and maybe do it in a way that's kind of fun and kind of brings us all to, you know, to feel a little bit more grounded, a little bit more centered and have a better understanding of what the hell is happening in America, the world as it's, you know, as it's going on. So maybe we'll have a good time doing that and hopefully. people at home will appreciate it. Rob (08:12) you know couple points there that i i think deserve highlighting one is fun hopefully that we we can have some fun with this i mean i i enjoy you guys i i usually do have fun when we're where engaged serious stuff we we we are dealing with serious stuff and and the the anxiety it creates callers are perception of it so if we can mitigate some of that anxiety i think we're able to understand it better David (08:36) I got a time out there. You just said colors. What? You said colors. Yeah. All right. Just, just making sure that other people knew that that's what you meant. Rob (08:45) yeah okay my my appellation accent will come David (08:47) The host is coming out of me. just want to make sure people knew that Keith (08:50) Hmm. David (08:51) collars means colors in your apple, apple action. Rob (08:53) colors colors yet so yes it will color or color are perspective of the anxiety and and the other part of what you're saying you've completely made me forget because David (09:05) You're welcome. Rob (09:06) you're a jackass and David (09:07) I am. That should be part of my intro next time. I am a jackass. Rob (09:11) Yeah. huh. Keith (09:14) No objections. Rob (09:15) no protections David (09:15) But we're all but we all are we are all here to have fun, but we mean we are all here to impart knowledge have a good time doing it and Help help people get along and honestly we have Means to reach out to us. We have socials. We've got them on I think the gamut you got X you got Facebook. It's the blue sky tick tock that one was tough and We give a Rob (09:36) I think my new mission here is to bring understanding to the Appalachian accent and acceptance, David (09:44) Do it. Rob (09:45) and acceptance to all things David (09:46) and exit. Rob (09:47) Appalachian. Keith (09:48) I wouldn't have guessed it from the outset when we started talking about doing this podcast, Rob, that you would be the comedic relief. Rob (09:55) Ha ha ha. Keith (09:55) It's a great surprise. I thought David (09:58) Burbent... Burban is a... Keith (10:00) maybe David would be that foil, but it's good to see you step out. Rob (10:04) Yeah. David (10:04) Now, no, I'm the tech support at best. I'm here to make this all work. You guys, that's all. You guys get a really good train champ. You could probably replace me. So, yeah, you could. I Rob (10:14) We We'll work on that. David (10:17) know. I'm gonna set some really difficult passwords though. that's my, that's, hey, damn it, now I gotta change it. All right. Rob (10:20) Okay. Password 123. I get it. I understand. Yeah. David (10:27) Okay. Well, we've introduced ourselves. We've introduced what we're doing. let's, let's kick it over. So, the topic this week, we're going to talk about grandiosity. and the complex that is prevalent in America. So whatever, I know you have a ton of notes and you've been just dying for weeks to talk about it. You're just shaking. So Rob (10:45) just I have been. Well, David (10:47) hit us with it while I get a refill. Rob (10:51) my question actually before I even dive into this topic that yeah, I am biting at the bit. My question to you guys is, Is it a glitch or is it a feature? this part of our nation from the jump? Is this part of our success or is it a function of now? Keith (11:10) That's a great question. I think we're split. Just as a character of a nation. David (11:15) So define split for us, for those of us who aren't psychiatrists, psychologists, just... Keith (11:19) Yeah, no, not yeah, not not split, not split in that way that you're probably thinking, David, in terms of a primitive character, I think, to split in sort of a two mindedness of. You can see it in our movies, too, not just in what we learn in our in our in our social studies or what have. But we we love to idealize an idealized figure. Right. We love to have some. Buddy, some person that we feel is grandiose and perfect. So, you know, be the object of what we put on them. But I think there's a split in times it works well and times it does not work well. We can go back to the founding, right? George Washington was a grandiose figure, still is, right? Never told a lie. And as far as we understand, that worked well for the time that we needed it. But then there's other times where there's grandiosity. You know, where somebody has this exaggerated sense of self-importance, achievements, being capable of things others aren't, where it works well for them perhaps, but nobody else. I think, you know, those are the two, maybe split's not the right word, right? But those are the two flavors that we have. think sometimes there's a happy accident of history where someone idealized with a grandiose sense of self. works well for the nation and other times where it really doesn't work well for anyone, but who's on the receiving end of that grandiosity and sometimes sociopathy, which we talk about later. David (12:44) Well, so, Keith (12:44) Yeah, you can t- David (12:45) go back. Sociopathy then. So, for those of us, what do mean? Keith (12:50) Well, yeah, no, yeah. David (12:50) How do you just kind of give us a little definition? Yeah. Keith (12:54) Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So someone who, who, who takes pleasure in using their, their, their full sense of self, their fuller sense of self, their grandiose sense of self and their sense of self importance and their preoccupation with unlimited power or success where they, they use those abilities. Often they're, they're quite, enjoyable to be around, quick talker, but they use those abilities to take pleasure in harming others in small ways, in large ways, in administrative ways. Unfortunately, most of the data comes out of prisons where folks that are found to be this way did crimes that maybe were easy to catch or easy to describe, like beating someone up or assaulting someone. But you also see them in the top tiers of our society where they may run companies or have leadership positions in companies. they may get a lot of pleasure out of using their power and their sense of inflated self to, they say, fire a thousand people or change a policy within a company or a government structure that hurts a lot of people. they really kind of get off on that sense. So at the core of it all, right, we could, if we wanted to, right, we could go through all the criteria that... three of us know, but at the core of it, there's this need to feel pleasure at causing other people's pain through your ability, through your power, through your grandiosity, through your inflated sense of self that nobody in this moment has. And that's what I was referring to. David (14:23) Okay. Rob (14:23) And there's a... So, sociopathy... There's a book, surprise. The Mask... Yeah. Keith (14:29) Yeah, we need to book a book alert, David (14:31) The Mask of- Keith (14:32) book alert, book alert. Rob (14:33) you buckler David (14:33) It's good book though. Rob (14:34) mask of sanity that is kind of that that that earliest work of highlighted and it was really just case reports of of sp sociopaths in modern parlance it anti-social personality as as taken over the use of that terminology. sociopathy, antisocial. I think there's a fine point between the two. the easiest way I can sum it up is I'll hurt you before you hurt me. An individual whose, that's their ethos, guiding principle. David (15:08) So you're talking about Rob (15:10) Go ahead. David (15:10) Harvey Kleckley, early, early book, Mask of Sanity, and then that ultimately comes, you get then Robert Hare's kind of further studies into psychopathy, which we're not really gonna get into, but the Rob (15:24) Mm-mm. David (15:24) of the delineation between. Antisocial personality disorder, is what the DSM speaks to, which is our psychiatry Bible of disorders, right? And then Rob (15:34) Right. David (15:35) you have antisocial personality disorder, but then you have more of the colloquial sociopathy, which defines this kind of more broader sense. And then psychopathy, which is this more smaller subset, but much more dangerous. Interesting. I love that topic, but we can maybe we'll have to discuss it later, but. Rob (15:51) maybe and i want to be cautious i'm not saying the united states it uh... if i was to put a personality structure on the united states sociopathy would not be it uh... i think grandiosity which plays in the other types of personality uh... you know i started off by asking the question what what i eat So I'm working on something and and you guys are gonna call me to task on this but I'm working on the concept of nations having a personality and if they have a personality that personality was developed from a formative environment and Keith (16:33) you Rob (16:34) if for the United States What is that formative environment that led us down a road? to resolve in a certain grandiosity and what i'm thinking right now as we're talking about grandiosity i'm thinking about it w w or w two of you have uh... whatever that whatever it is now, wrestling, professional wrestling. And I'm thinking about, David (16:56) It's E, your age is showing. Rob (16:58) okay, which is fine. My age shows ridiculously on this face. So in my thought process, it should show as well. But I'm thinking about those incredible displays of ostensibly national pride in which there is a chant that just erupts in a stadium filled with thousands and thousands of people and it's USA USA USA. There's a grandiosity to that and it serves a purpose and my question to you brilliant gentlemen or not so gentlemen is Where's that come from? What started that? Why do we hold onto that so dearly? Keith (17:37) I don't think we had it for the whole of our nation. I don't know what you all think. I think there was a switch in your, in your comments around personality of a nation, Rob. I think there was a switch around world war two when we did seem to get some, I don't know if reasons the right word, but some reason to feel grandiose. about who we were as a nation. I don't think before that we felt that way. mean, others may, more learned folks may know more about this than me. Rob (18:07) Let me throw in a topic just just to add to what you're saying. So American exceptionalism I know both of you have heard the terminology American exceptionalism has been a concept since 1836 and in 1836 a French guy political scientist made reference to the exceptionalism of the United States and it sort of took on its own life and that exceptionalism was based in the fact that we were built on a revolution, that we were a first democracy, that we were built on a set of principles. And those principles were exceptional. And I'm going to agree with that. Our principles, you know, we hold these truths to be self-evident, were exceptional. My sense is that that grandiosity has been part of us since the beginning. Now I hear what Keith's saying, absolutely. World War II did was a deciding factor. And I, you know, I'm old enough that I still, World War II still resonates with me because the people I grew up with, that was their formative experience. Probably no doubt that, you know, the fact that we came into World War II and we made the difference and we ended the war and we were the arsenal of democracy. But I think it goes back farther than that. think grandiosity is baked into the cake. Keith (19:31) I mean, maybe it's pent up demand for the grandiosity. after, during, after World War II, had a ton of loan securities that we were able to acquire and we became the natural resource supplier to the rest of the world across the Atlantic. I almost felt like we were sort of just waiting for the reason to, you know, flex our grandiose muscles. I agree. We were, we were born under extraordinary ideals. I'm not sure we ever thought they would really work or come to any strong fruition, but when the happenings of World War II came together, we were in quite a position to leverage whatever it was that we had. And we sure did. We've become a very wealthy, very powerful nation because of it. It feels like we were teetering. until we got out of the Great Depression and then had the boom of the 1940s and 50s. And now we are who we are today. And it feels a little bit like a bit of a hangover in the 2020s of that Rob (20:38) 80 years. Keith (20:40) binge. David (20:40) So you're referencing Rob (20:41) David. David (20:42) the book that you brought up last time, the storm before the calm and the cycles of 80 years, is that what you were referencing? Rob (20:51) uh... uh... well yes uh... hangover uh... circle back in and So current research on narcissism, which grandiosity plays significantly into that, about 30 % is genetic. 30-35 % is genetic. So we can't account for that. Our heritage does not involve sexual intercourse, as it turns out. But what we did have is apparent. and our parent was Great Britain, and we broke away from that parent. When you think about narcissism, you go backwards, and you go backwards to the point of infancy. And what, go ahead. David (21:31) So, define... So narcissism, I think, is one of those terms that gets thrown around. Rob (21:38) overused. David (21:40) Well, not necessarily overused. mean, I think it gets used... Well, it gets... Rob (21:42) I don't know, man. It's all over TikTok. Are you dating a narcissist? My answer is probably. David (21:48) Are you on TikTok? That's a big... I don't believe you are. I doubt very seriously you are. But... Rob (21:51) Now, my kids bring these to me. David (21:55) Yeah. So, no, you're not. Keith (21:57) What? Yeah, like a cat with mice. David (21:58) But no, think narcissism is one of those terms where it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. what do you mean when you're talking about it? Rob (22:04) Yeah, so when I'm talking of narcissism, I'm talking about a personality structure and, you know, all of this... David (22:13) You gotta layman's terms this formulaicum 5. You gotta... Rob (22:17) Yeah, David (22:17) And I've been drinking bourbon. Rob (22:19) right, right, right, right. So, all of us psychiatrists have our own favorite psychodynamic theory that makes the most sense to us, and largely because it resonates with us, because it fits our own psychopathology. However, with For me, the theory that has always resonated the best with me is the Jungian theory for personality structure. And Jung said that there are two great things that we have to struggle with when we're small. The first thing is the fear of abandonment. And the second is fear of engulfment. So when you're tiny, you don't have to be a genius to realize The people around you can walk away from you and you will die. The people around you could beat you to death. You have no ability to protect yourself. You don't have to be a genius to catch that. And what ends up developing a personality is our ability to navigate those two fears, find a place in the between in which we can be comfortable. And for narcissism, what tends to happen is that their sense of protection between those things can take on multiple forms. But for narcissism, particularly, it's a power complex, that they become more powerful than the other, the other being the parent, the just... the person that's out there acting upon them. So they can do that to protect themselves from abandonment and they can also do that to protect themselves from engulfment. I am more powerful than you. That resonates with me from a national character standpoint. Britain should have beat us in the Revolutionary War. They didn't because they had other things that they were investing in. they didn't have the resources. I'm not a historian, but to my memory, we won like two battles. The final battle and the Battle of Trenton, the Christmas across the river against the Haitians. David (24:20) Wow. Wow. Keith (24:20) Rob, was it the Rio Grande? Rob (24:23) it because of the David (24:24) in the Rio Grande. Rob (24:26) but we want what not not not isn't totally yeah added that out were fine right David (24:30) You are not a historian. Downing Granada. The banana. I'm not gonna edit that out. Are you kidding me? Keith (24:30) Dave, going have to edit that out. Rob (24:41) but Keith (24:40) for god's sake, please edit that out. The Haitians. Rob (24:42) we we won too battles in that there may have been more and again i'm not a i'm not a historian i don't pretend to be but What I can say is we certainly weren't kicking the British, kicking their ass up and down the seaboard. They were winning most of the battles. And then in 1812, they came and thoroughly kicked our asses to include burning down Washington, DC. So our defense against that... in my mind has been this power complex that that we became more powerful mentally in our thoughts than those around us. And I think that's existed forever. Well, for 250 years. Keith (25:26) Yeah, I think the success of the nation has kind of gone backwards to say like the way we think is better or valuable. And it's, it's kind of a Calvinistic approach, right? It's a, well, you're successful. David (25:38) Why? Keith (25:39) So the thoughts that you may have had, must have had were right. Or the beliefs or the behaviors you must have had were right. And a lot of ways our success is, a lot of happy accidents. No, you're, I think you're, you're right, Rob. We didn't fight the Haitians in the Revolutionary Rob (25:52) Hahaha Keith (25:53) War. But yeah, there were some wins. you were thinking about Hessians? Hessians, yes. There was some good luck in Fort Ticonderoga. There Rob (25:56) Was it Hessians? What was it? Someone help me here! David (25:59) It was the Haitians, yeah. It was the Haitians, yeah. We were fighting the Haitians. That's why we won. Keith (26:08) was just an accumulation of happy accidents in British malaise and grandiosity. excessively grandiose in their confidence. And it was, was Hessian, yes. Yes. Yeah. But not the Rio Grande. Rob (26:17) Hessians! It's Hessians! David (26:20) Well, you also think it's collar, so... Why Rob (26:24) I'm gonna totally blame that. David (26:24) don't you get your collaring book out right now and Rob (26:27) I'm blaming it on Appalachia. David (26:29) Burman. Keith (26:30) I'm gonna blame it on your whiteness. It's okay. We all have it Or you know some people want it. Yeah Rob (26:34) Some more so than others. David (26:36) think we've lost all of our Revolutionary War survivors. They're not going to listen to us now. Rob (26:39) We have which is luckily small percentage of the audience. We're fine. We're fine David (26:42) small percentage of our audience. Keith (26:44) Mm-hmm David (26:46) America has had grandiosity built into its fibers for a long time. that's been American exceptionalism has been there. We've had our ups, we've had our downs. We've had a lot of successes, particularly since World War II. We've been remarkably successful. have Even the last 30 years economically, we have had amazing, amazing success. think Europe would be quite enviable with how successful we've been. But there is a Rob (27:23) Thank David (27:24) disproportionate level of grandiosity that we are seeing now. There has been an absolute explosion in grandiosity on an individualistic level, not just America, but people. And that's been something that has been pretty, pretty well documented, um, for, for a while. So book that goes back to 2007, the narcissism epidemic. by and he's twang twange and Campbell that speaks about, I think they actually call, they call out, Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan quite a bit in this book, but they talk about, and this is, this was when social media was really starting to ramp up. quite hadn't quite yet, but really was, but it was this escalation of individualistic narcissism. not, not, and not the narcissistic personality disorder that we all think about as psychiatrists where it's causing a lot of interpersonal conflict or causing a lot of depression, anxiety, things like that. But this self centeredness and this hyper focus on thyself that didn't seem to be rooted. doesn't seem to be rooted in this overarching sense of fear that somebody is going to figure out that I'm lonely or this it's literally it's people who are who actually run around feeling like they are that much more awesome than everybody else. And now in this book, they, you know, they postulate that it has to do with the fact that parents Are as to do with the development of parents. It's children parents saying Hey, you are super special. Look you failed great job champ You're you're doing you you tried really hard and even though you didn't succeed you're still a winner in my book And no matter what? Yeah, well not no Rob (29:15) Did you do your best? Did you do your best? David (29:17) not even no you didn't even do your best but you you know what I dragged you out and you you sat on the sideline and you You may be pitched a fit And you didn't get in the game, but you know whose fault that is? Not yours, buddy. That's the coach's fault because he's a jerk and you deserve this huge trophy, even though you guys all lost in this. The I hate to call it social media. Hit those hit that subscribe button. But this ability for people Rob (29:43) Shit. David (29:43) to match that this ability for people to just have that constant. focus on themselves always just me me me and it has even they bring up at that time especially now you have reality television that is completely full of people who are that score very high on the narcissism personality index the npi where they they're just more likely to be on TV. And so not only are you going to see these really narcissistic people, but you're going to see them more, more often. You're going to more than likely idolize them. And now what do we have? And this was, this was 14, this was 2007. So almost 20 years ago. Um, now you have this Rob (30:26) Mm-hmm. David (30:27) whole group of adults who grew up in this culture where that was not just, uh, it was normalized. It was completely normal. It was expected. And so Are we surprised? Rob (30:38) No. Now, right, moving on. David (30:40) Alright, next topic. Solved! No. No. Rob (30:46) Getting back to the Haitians. I think we need to solve that. No, no, no, no, no. David (30:50) The An-Hatians? Are you talking about... like, like, Ellen's... Keith (30:50) Heh. Rob (30:58) I was clearly referencing the Haitians. fault. Anyway, here's a David (31:05) It's the moops. Rob (31:06) Yeah, here's David (31:06) It's the moops. Rob (31:08) a fascinating little thing that I do keep finding myself coming back to, which is there is a national character and it probably does stem from a formative experience nationally. Then there is the personalities of our leaders, which define the personality of the nation at any given time. And then there is also precedence that decisions that were made in the past end up carrying forward because this is the American way. And what you're talking about at this moment is accurate. As a child of the 80s, I can recall a time when we had field days. And if you won, you got a blue ribbon. And if you didn't, you got, I don't know, red. Second place was red and third place was white or something. I can't recall. David (32:04) He doesn't remember Keith (32:04) I did David (32:04) because he didn't get anything. Keith (32:05) get a green one for participation once at Glenwood Elementary School. I was very disappointed to get the green participation ribbon. Rob (32:11) I don't even recall having participation ribbons when I was a kid, but that is the honor. Keith (32:18) honorable mention that was, yeah, didn't call it participation. Rob (32:24) I do recall though that that is the genesis of the self-esteem movement and that self-esteem movement was all of you are valuable and there's some reality to that. We want children to feel valuable. The problem is, and this is the problem with narcissism actually links back in, is that if it's not tied to legitimate success, it plays into the psychodynamics of narcissism. I am great. I am fantastic. But underneath it is a house of cards that has no substance. And they are at least marginally, at least marginally aware of that. And where we sit is that we have maybe a generation of narcissists. We certainly have a generation of narcissistic politicians who are interested in hits or clicks or whatever on social media. And their actions are performative to get those hits and clicks, that attention. It's not tied to a bigger picture. It's not tied to what's the right thing for the nation for the future. David (33:32) I think you bring up a good point. I disagree a little bit. think you're, well, I disagree a little. I do. I did. No, I agree. Rob (33:37) Thank you. I hear what you're saying. I think you're full of shit. I get it. David (33:44) No, I don't think you're full of shit. think you're part. I think part of what you're saying is correct because there is definitely a subset of narcissists who have that house of cards built up. And then there's a subset who. honestly just think they're amazing and that's it. They really think they are wonderful and can't be told otherwise because they have nobody to tell them otherwise. And when you grow up and at four years old, your parents say, hey champ, which car should I buy? And the kid says, I want that one. And you go, okay, let's get that car. That kid thinks that they had a say in buying that car. And that is not. That kid shouldn't have a say in the buying of the car, but when that pattern plays out, that kid will grow up thinking that they are something quite special and it's not a house of cards. It's they feel that way. But that wasn't really the point that I wanted to make. What I wanted to get at was, mean, that was that's part of why I think I think you're well, I think you're partially. No, I think you're Rob (34:36) I say all this to say that. Go ahead. David (34:39) part. I think I think you you make a good point on it's it's. Yes, there are people who fall into that category, but there are definitely people who don't. Now from a, from a political perspective, think the grandiosity or at least what it, what it seems like plays a lot more off of the short attention span that are that the way that we consume media allows there to be because it allows, just allows us to, you can kind of say whatever. And then it does, it just goes out in the void. It's like, well, I didn't really say that or. Who cares that I said that? And there's this sort of brazen ability to deny it and, or at the very least, just try things that in the past you never would have where you'll see, for instance, you'll see where somebody will go through a trial and be found guilty. And then the defense will stand up and say, yeah, they're okay. can you let them go though? And that's like, that would never have happened 20 years ago because you just wouldn't ask such a brazenly stupid ballsy question in the court yet now why not? mean, why the hell not? You might as well. And that's amazing to me, but that seems to be the thing that keeps happening. it's this, is it grandiosity? Is it just taking advantage of the fact that it seems like, well, okay, yeah, I'll just ask you something nobody else has asked. Yeah, they're guilty, but can you let them go? I mean, the worst you could do is say no. I mean, it's worked before. Like I'll just keep. Rob (36:09) So how's that tie in to? everything you're saying resonates with me is real. And the thing that is challenging is that we are a nation of people. And we are people, maybe specifically our leaders, and they are compelled by the same psychodynamic forces as all of us. The forces acting on the country trigger a response guided by the leaders' psychodynamics. then those adaptations that are part of that leader become our national character. So pull this out. Let's take the microscope, spin it back to binoculars. Why are we so fucked up? Keith! Keith (36:47) Well, yeah, I have the answer, Rob. I mean, I love your comment around. Well, it made me think of. If there are accomplished, let's say in this argument, politicians, there are really accomplished, really successful politicians. I don't mind loving them as narcissists. That's fine with me. Right. But to your point too, I think David, if they're not accomplished, they haven't done anything. That's kind of, that is grandiose. That is extraordinary. That is inflated. That is the one thing politicians can do. They can do narcissistic things. I mean, not in a pathologic way, but in a descriptive way. I don't mind exalting them for the sake of social group interest, but when someone's done nothing, but they exalt themselves like they have, that's just pathology and it goes onto a national level. Why are we so fucked up, Rob? I don't know. I don't know. That's what we're here for. Rob (37:42) Hey, thanks for your insight. David (37:43) If yeah, that was really helpful. We're we're good. Well, but I think that's that's just it is that. The attention span is so short Rob (37:52) Ha ha ha. Keith (37:52) you David (37:56) that you just, play the damn odds. You say the big thing because if you can get the attention, it doesn't matter. Any publicity is good publicity in this environment. If you get the clicks, you got the clicks. It doesn't matter why somebody's looking at you. it's that they're looking at you and that is what feeds the grandiosity. And what we have right now Keith (38:18) Yeah. David (38:19) is a way to get the most eyes on you as quickly as possible. And you have a finite amount of time to do that, Keith (38:26) Thank you. David (38:27) but everybody is walking around with a way to get eyes on you, a way to register that the eyes are on you. We can track that immediately when you click it. You can also, you don't, can click you can track where on the button they clicked. And so we can, you can, that's all you're looking for. It doesn't, you can, you can see exactly where the X and the Y was, you, where on the button you clicked. Exactly, you can see exactly. Rob (38:50) Middle, left, right. David (38:53) And so that's all that matters is not that you're doing good, that you're doing bad, it's that you're doing something and that people Rob (39:03) with with David (39:04) saw it. and that as long as you are on the right team and that your team is winning, you're good. Keith (39:10) Yeah. I don't, I don't mind working hard, doing amazing things that add value and then feeling grandiose for that. I Rob (39:19) Yes. Keith (39:19) mean, there's some downsides to it, right? But I can, I can permit that. Rob (39:24) Yes. Keith (39:25) But when there's grandiosity without good practical works of action. And I think that's in a lot of ways what we're dealing with. I think also, I know we're trying to be apolitical, but when we look at our or by camera, Congress, I think there's a huge focus on, on this concept of grandiosity and grandstanding, but where's the, I mean, for God's sakes, we pay their salaries. Where's the results? Where's the results? And you, we may disagree David (39:51) I guess that's it. It doesn't matter. Keith (39:53) with the results. We may not like the results, but even if I don't agree with you, if you grinded hard and worked on it, did your homework and you got some good results. Bad results, but you got results. Okay. Right. But it seems like now it's much more of kind of what you were talking about, David, like low effort, shallow, know, shallow hollow output and to say, Hey, look what I did. Well, you didn't, you didn't do anything. is the, where is the pushing your agenda? Where's the benefit of the people, Rob (40:23) Thank Keith (40:23) whoever it is that you represent. That's a branching off point. David (40:27) No, but I think you're, no, you actually, you're Rob (40:28) It is. David (40:29) 100 % right though, because what you see, no, okay, well, you're 73 % right Rob (40:32) Well, 100 % is probably strong. He's... He's 67. Keith (40:35) I'll take it. I mean, usually, usually. David (40:38) here, because what you're saying is exactly where I am with being in the exhaustive middle, which is that fine, be on the, yeah. Rob (40:52) He's drinking out of mojito glass. David (40:56) Beyond is it Keith (40:56) you David (40:57) it's like a pre is it a pre-mixed mojito to to topo Chico is that even real alcohol so Rob (40:57) It's a mojito glass. It's... it's... it's... the gods of bourbon are going to strike us down. David (41:08) That's how you get kicked out. Keith (41:14) Right, though I think you mean the Haitians are gonna strike us down. David (41:17) the An-Hatians. Rob (41:16) The Haitians, the gods of urban are sending the Haitians. David (41:21) We're gonna, anyway, no, but that's just it. Whether you are on the right or the left, the problem here is that they figured out a way, both sides have figured out a way to shoot fish in a barrel without doing anything. It's just get some damn clicks by saying something and produce nothing and do nothing for the rest. And I think that's where understanding why grandiosity in this environment that we're in is so important because what it ultimately comes down to is that what we say is to demand something, give me something to say, okay, look, you did something, you did X, Y, or Z. Rob (42:02) Well, that circles back to, I think, a theme that's going to become ours, which is this moment. David (42:10) Are we getting a theme song? Rob (42:12) Well, maybe. Well, I can't think of a... I think there is a song David (42:14) Common knockout? Rob (42:15) called this moment, maybe. No. So David (42:18) I thinking Threes Company, but that's already taken. Rob (42:23) when we are engaged in psychotherapy, one of the critical Questions is is why now what why why right now? Why didn't you come in three weeks ago? Why didn't you come in two weeks from now? Why why now what what was it that at this moment? You said I I really have to go and I think part of this moment is is social media and social media does reward narcissism and grandiosity. It rewards a meaningless action that drives clicks. And David says they can even tell you where they're clicking on the button. And I don't know what they're driving from that. I tend to click on the right of the button. Maybe that means something. I don't know. But right now, at this moment, There are certain politicians who I will not bring up, whose entire politics are driven by social media. It's not that they've accomplished anything. It's not that they have a thoughtful perspective. It's not that they are protecting the nation. It's nothing other than they have crack the code on what drives the audience that elects them. David (43:39) Alexander Hamilton. I mean, we've all seen it, right? Rob (43:46) I'm David (43:48) What? Rob (43:49) I'm not. I'm not. I'm sitting here in Appalachia. The Hamilton's not come to my Keith (43:54) you Rob (43:55) region. But... But... The... The Haitians... We've... Keith (43:57) Soon the Haitians will. Katie bar the door. I think you've made me think of something like, at the end of the day, this hasn't ever changed. At the end of the day, politics is a popularity contest. And that, Rob (44:11) This. Keith (44:12) you know, it is what it is, right? It is what it is. But those that win the popularity contest who do something, even if one doesn't agree with what they did, those who do something versus just saying, I won the popularity contest, I have the clicks, I have the likes, therefore I am something and I'm powerful. That's much more of a pathologic expression of grandiosity in our field than Yes, as I'd say, I won the popularity contest and then I went to work and I did these things and then I can brag about them, whether you agree with them or not. But I'm not seeing anything from anyone out of any office that I can say, look what this person did. I'm just not seeing any effort. I don't know, David, what do you think? David (44:57) No, think, but I think that's been the status quo for a long time. I think that is sort of the complaint. Rob (45:07) Pre-social media. David (45:09) Oh, pre-social media? No. And I think that's, that's the issue is, is that what we're seeing is the, the challenge right now is get elected, stay elected. and then don't do anything to get unelected. Rob (45:26) So there's the potential plus the means. And an argument can be made that politicians, by virtue of the path they take, there's a certain amount of grandiosity that's required. And I even think, David, you may have said Keith (45:40) I think so. Rob (45:41) this several episodes backwards when we were... trying to get our feed under us that i am not a politician because i don't know that i can win and you gotta know at your core be willing to say i can win so they all have the potential it's baked in the cake it's part of it it's it's who they are what's the David (46:01) Well, just give an example. mean, here's a good example. mean, look at the New York mayoral race. I mean, but look at it. Rob (46:10) I don't wanna, I don't wanna, it's a shit show. David (46:14) Exactly. But look at that race. Feel how you do about the Democratic primary in the New York mayoral race. What was going on there? You had two people who had major, major scandals who were running and convinced they were going to win. And I, that, that is, that's, that is the grandiosity that has to be as a, as a politician to say, Hey, I have, I have had all sorts of legal concerns and that is I'm still gonna run because I can win. People are gonna ignore that. Rob (46:51) So there's the potential. And what's unique about this moment is they also have the means. Social media provides the means to be low. Low in terms of content, high in terms of clicks. Keith (47:07) But I think, David, your comments get away from, you know, we're talking about narcissism as a character trait. You're talking more about sociopathy. Like, a person can be grandiose and have a grand self-importance. They can be preoccupied with power and beauty and love, and they can think they're special and require excessive admiration and entitlement, and they can exploit. Well, exploit gets a little bit into sociopathy, but... Rob (47:33) It does. Keith (47:34) We all can have those character traits, but what we do with them then does translate into sociopathy, which I think is more what we're dealing with, especially with some of our more famous elected politicians in the state and federal space. You can have a grand sense of yourself. That's fine. It can be charming. It can be annoying. It can be anything in between. But when you do something harmful with it, that gets into the more primitive space of sociopathy, which I think this country is dealing with at a national and political... Let's say secretary of state level, just whatever's going on in our state politics between nations. think that's happening and it's, it's impactful. And then something I think a lot of people are thinking about and we all should think about, but at the end of the day, right. We care more about what am I going to do for dinner? Am I going to be able to pay my bills? What's the cost of gas? Is it going to be a good date night? And I think that that offers a space for those that just say, you know, nobody else wants to do this job. I can be grandiose and make my 200 and X number of thousand dollars a year being in an elected position. But I really, I really get a whole lot more money doing other things. It makes it makes me want to tell my kids like, hey, you know, the best job you should run for is. Senate or representative of the United States. You don't have to do anything. You just have to be grandiose and narcissistic and collect the clicks, which is a concern. That's not what I want to see for what I think is a great nation. Rob (49:06) Currently, they're not making decisions. They're mitigating public opinion to get to a point that is established. which probably brings me to our prescriptions. David (49:17) You want to get to the prescriptions? We can, Rob (49:20) I think so. David (49:21) we can, we can. Let's do it. You gotta start it off. You brought it up. You gotta start it off. Rob (49:24) I got to start. hell. All right. So Carl Rogers. Carl Rogers, psychotherapist, had a perspective that's often referenced as Rogerian now. But he said there are three essential characteristics to an effective therapist. There's accurate empathy, there's unconditional positive regard, and then there's genuineness. what i think is a prescription for us as a nation is unfortunately something is not appetite for which is revealing are inadequacies missus this is obviously a serious one not a a silly one you know when i was a my history class included our inadequacies, our failures. We are a nation built on all men are created equal with slavery. That's an inadequacy that we really do have to sit with and have to be able to say out loud. and have to be able to say, it's okay that we were imperfect and that imperfection does not have to resound through history. And until we can sit with our imperfections, of which there are many, then We're stuck in a narcissistic stance. at how we get to that other than through the educational system. I don't know. But from a conversational standpoint, recognizing that we're not quite as perfect as we might want to be. Keith (50:56) Yeah, I think that's on target. At the end of the day, narcissism comes from deep self-deficits, whether they're quite primitive or more neurotic. But if you want anyone in a position of power to look at their narcissism, you have to ask them to go back to their own hurt. It's tall order, right? It's a strong tonic. But if that person will go do that, then often the foundation that supports the shakiness of their narcissistic structure will crumble a bit and they will become more empathic, less grandiose, less needing to project power. on others for their own self needs. So it's not a complicated prescription, but one to look at your own hurt. Where were you hurt? Where were you inadequate? How are you living your inadequacy day to day? How do you cope with that? How do you make up for that? Do you still have to do it? Look at your own hurt. If a person can do that, it's not easy. If a person can do that, That's good for humanity, no matter what social system, local, large, government system, family that they live in. So that would be my prescription. David. David (52:05) I guess I get to do an absurd one. Rob (52:06) haha it's on point David (52:09) Okay, on point. right. So today's absurd prescription is that you and everyone gets to replace my prescription is to have you replace all of your mirrors with a handwritten note that says you are not the main character to combat your narcissism. That is that is the plan. So replace all your mirrors. Keith (52:29) You are not the hero. There you go. David (52:29) There you go. You are not the main character. Rob (52:34) You know, I love that and I guess I'll tell you why. I think there's a stoic philosophy driven perspective that says every day you should start the day by looking yourself in mirror and saying, you will die. And it's not designed necessarily to like, I don't know, to pull you down or to make you like, oh gosh, nothing's important. It's just that your existence is finite and you're going to end. And when you end, there will be a whole history that comes behind you. And one of the things that scares me in our politicians are the ones that don't seem to recognize that there's a history to come. There's a future. And that future has nothing to do with them. has, well, at least only has to do with them, with the things that they did that didn't assist. So David (53:37) Yeah. Rob (53:38) yeah, let's do that. Let's make all mirrors say that. David (53:41) As a psychiatrist, I tend to steer clear of having my patients, Keith (53:45) Mirrors. David (53:46) you know, tell themselves that they're going to die, but I get where going with that and I like it. So I appreciate, I appreciate that advice. Rob (53:51) You should do that. Nah, you should tell all of them, hey. Keith (53:54) Well, the death impulse is real. David (53:56) So, yeah. Rob (53:58) Have you thought about the fact that you're dying right now? David (54:01) not with this fantastic elixir Jefferson's Rob (54:06) Hahaha. David (54:08) Reserve. Keith (54:09) This harkens back to an earlier episode, the old Freudian death impulses drive too much of our neuroticism. Rob (54:17) that's a future episode. Absolutely. David (54:21) All right, so well For those of you who managed to stick around. Thank you for doing so We will have lots of I think fun tidbits. Hopefully we will We'll keep drinking Our bourbon and keep going from there. But thank you everyone who did listen, please subscribe We have our socials. We got Facebook. We've got Instagram X blue sky. We have YouTube shrink the nation at Shrink the Nation is usually what it is. That's where you'll find us. You can go to our website, ShrinkTheNation.com. can email us, socials at ShrinkTheNation.com for any comments, questions. We will start taking questions. So once we start getting those, we'll answer whatever we can. If there's anything interesting, so feel free to send those out. Last comments from these two yahoos? No? Anything? No? Keith (55:06) Looking forward to the questions. Keep going. David (55:07) Rob, would you like to look into the camera and tell everyone that they're gonna die again? Rob (55:10) yeah you are all David (55:11) Life is fun. Rob (55:12) sheep in front of this in the field in front of the butcher good luck with that David (55:16) Okay, yeah, thanks for that. Keith, Last words? That was it, okay. Keith (55:19) I'm good. I'm good. Rob (55:21) he's kept you can go beyond that uh... mean that's the reality Keith (55:22) I'm good. David (55:23) Can't go beyond that. right, well next week, next week topic cognitive dissonance. So whatever Rob (55:28) Okay. David (55:28) the hell that means, we'll find out. I'm looking forward to it. And thank you so much. Cue up the music. Let's hear Keith (55:32) I have nothing. David (55:34) it. You guys hear it? I do. It's catchy. It's catchy. All right. Rob (55:36) i hear it Keith (55:37) sounds great. Love it. David (55:39) Till next time. out. Bye.