Andrew Tate, MAGA, and the Myth of Power

David (00:00) Human beings are weird about power. We know the world is run by institutions, technology, information, and money. But we're still drawn to the guy standing on top of the hill yelling that he's the strongest. Maybe because that's a version of power we've understood for 10,000 years. This week we're talking about Andrew Tate, the Manosphere, MAGA, billionaires, and And why the forms of power that attract us may not be the forms of power that actually shape our lives. Let's make some sense of it. This is Shrink the Nation. Let's go. David (01:15) Alright, here we go. two, episode twenty-two. Super excited. I'm David. I've over twenty years in the military and I'm a board certified today I am drinking a giant mug of coffee because we're recording quite early in the morning, Not even sure where this coffee is from. I could tell you the details on it, but it's black, it's unsweetened, and it is delicious. Rob (01:39) Uh-huh. hey everyone. say good morning because it makes sense to me, but whenever you're listening to this good day, it's board certified psychiatrist military experience. I am also drinking coffee. I'm the black rifle this morning. also excellent. not as effective on the GABA receptors as our of choice, probably more appropriate for this morning. David (02:02) Yeah, I was considering putting some bourbon into my coffee and I was trying to figure what does one call you put bourbon in coffee because if you had whiskey you'd call it an Irish coffee. Yeah, it it isn't. I realize what it's really called is alcoholic. Rob (02:12) Kentucky. It's Kentucky coffee. yes. cuts through the fluff right there. Yeah. David (02:19) Yeah. So I I decided against that. I was trying to make sense of well it's five o'clock somewhere But I also realized here, it's five o'clock here. just the wrong end Rob (02:22) So I elected not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Well, there's day and then there's you know, six AM drinking and like it crosses a line. a good call. David (02:35) Mor morning drinking, yeah. opted against that. Yeah, I felt marriage and my family might do better if I don't emerge from the garage early in the morning shit faced. okay, well we'll try to get through this either way. but hey for those of you at home, if you're listening to this not in the car. Rob (02:46) Snookered up. Yep. David (02:55) And it is at an appropriate hour, feel free, grab a barbie, drink along. why I think we sound better once you've little drink. Rob (03:03) think we make a lot more someone else is drinking, more no doubt. David (03:06) Yeah. I'm starting to get to this point where I'm thinking, the secret sauce we've been trying to work on is us drinking the bourbon and just maybe the audience just needs to be. Rob (03:15) it. Yeah. David (03:16) we're gonna do a little drinking game for the audience today. anytime Robbie says second order effect or recommends a book, go ahead and drink. Rob (03:25) you know, that might be our niche, David. If if we can just catch on in a college level and become a drinking game, might be our pathway. David (03:32) I like anytime I try to make an analogy that makes zero that then drink. And it might make more sense too. That's just that's part of the coping mechanism. Okay. this week we have to follow up on what we were talking about last week just a little bit. Rob (03:36) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. David (03:48) we were discussing the interim director of national intelligence was picked to be Bill Poulty, who had no experience being in the intelligence community. And so yeah, we picked that apart. I think a lot of people did. It bipartisan look at, well, this isn't a great option. And surprisingly, the administration off of that pick, said, well, it's actually just interim. And now, as we sit here, they have introduced a new Jay Clayton, who impressive resume he's worked extensively in corporate law, securities regulation, financial enforcement, federal prosecution. of US SEC commission twenty seventeen to twenty twenty, US attorney for the Southern District of New York beginning in twenty twenty five, which is one of the more difficult, challenging roles as far as the US attorneys. the the Southern District of New York is is a very busy one. but he's also a former partner at Sullivan and Cromwell. Rob (04:27) Yeah. And he's the David (04:43) which is one of the most influential corporate law firms in the country. So a very impressive resume question still is but is that resume impressive for the director of national intelligence? gonna throw that one to you, Robbie. Rob (04:59) sure. So there's a couple of things that strike me nomination. one, he ends up r acting as a as a relief object. So what we were presented with someone who was just objectively unqualified, that is up lowering the bar. And then they send someone else in who clears that bar just based on competence in one realm, but competence in a single realm does not necessarily equate to competence in all realms. So, you know, if he was nominated for something in realm of the law, then I would say, all right, yeah, he's got the the qualifications. this is a man who's never done intelligence work. a man who's never done military work. integration of this intelligence gathering and the way it's supposed to be disseminated out he doesn't have that particular skill set. It's kinda like saying, you know, hey, you're an expert cardiologist. I'm gonna put you in charge of submarine warfare because they both involve high pressure situations. It it just simply doesn't translate. David (06:01) Yeah, I don't wanna harp on Jay Clayton. we just gotta point out the psychological phenomenon that's happening in this you gave something that was completely unacceptable. both sides said, This isn't really a great pick, we're not gonna accept this. and so they, you know, compromised with a slightly better pick. And the expectation would be that everyone goes, okay, well, that's a lot better. Congress was hoping to get laid. The White House said, Nah, we're not gonna do that. And then Congress was like, Come on, And the White House said, Okay, we'll give you a hand job and Congress is cool with that's Rob (06:35) You know, it's something. You other part of this is that it actually obscures the true motivation of of both nominations, that the nominations have nothing to do with the ability to be the D and I, which is so often the case in in many of the nominations for the secretaries and these positions. it really has nothing to do with their ability to do that job. It has to do with loyalty. this is not a kept secret, but the intent of the administration is that the DNI is going to be investigating election fraud. Now, why the D and I would investigate domestic election fraud, I don't know. that's not a DNI role. The D and I is supposed to be gathering of foreign and and collating it and making sure that all associated bodies are aware for our audience that position was created after nine eleven to ensure that there's not the stove piping of information intelligence collections agencies. so really this has nothing to do. I mean we end up focusing, and that's something that I I'm just stunned the talking heads on news channels, the politicians, they tend to talk about qualification as if this is an honest nomination and it's not it's not a nomination honestly of a person who the belief is they can do that job the way it needs to be done. it's because of loyalty and because of a a separate purpose the goal is get someone in there that can you know mess with elections. in world according to Rob at least, based on the tea leaves as I read them. David (08:08) Well, I mean it's definitely getting somebody in there who can help with national intelligence because if that was the case they would pick somebody who has a background in national intelligence. Rob (08:19) You'd think. there's probably a few. candidates out there that have done the work and understand the systems. David (08:23) It yeah, be but again the the problem with having a candidate who understands the work and understands the systems wouldn't probably be doing it the way that they want it done, which is not that. ultimately where idea that this is an acceptable pick I think is gonna go through all of our heads. I think even the first time I was like, Okay, well, who's this guy? And looked at his qualifications and said, Okay, wow, he's very qualified. Just not for this. but he is so much more qualified than Bill Poulty that there is some sense of relief. that is just a a trick that your brain is playing on you because it sounds like a compromise. And when we hear the word compromise, what it sounds like is that both parties in the debate have given up something in order to get what they want. to be clear, the American people who are ultimately on the other side of this, they're the ones who want a director of national intelligence to do the job that our government is supposed to be doing, and what is being offered up is somebody who cannot. Rob (09:20) you've stimulated this topic. I'm not giving you credit because David (09:23) I think people should drink whenever you say stimulated. Rob (09:26) Mm. Yeah, the way you just phrased it, it made it sound dirty. this triggered me to think of something. this is kind of a pattern, a pattern of individuals for these positions who are not qualified do the job. they are qualified to be loyal to the man who's picking them. so these jobs are usually many of them at least are outward. looking jobs. In other words, they're supposed to be looking at the world as a whole, whether it be State Departments, whether it be D and I, they're looking at the world. a job that that is important to the function of the United States. I mean even like Homeland Security, you know, our our old friend Mark Wayne, who's really he's really doing a bang up job. I mean, the guy is a quote creation machine. does some weird things. even it's a job that should be facing outward into the country, in the protection of the homeland. But this administration, which is my euphemism for Donald really is people that will him, his priorities, his wants and desires and interests. And that's to the exclusion of the actual job that they're supposed to do. of the defense of the homeland, gathering intelligence. and it is almost like they're not considering the second and third order effects of that. David (10:43) think they got to drink on my analogy early anyway. Rob (10:46) Th they did, they did. but it's like they're not considering the effects of that. the fact that if someone's not doing the DNI job, if someone's not truly doing the homeland defense job, if the Secretary of State is also the what's his other role? of staff for the White House David (11:03) Chef, head chef, I think. probably mows their lawn at some point. I'm I'm sure he's in charge of all of that stuff. Rob (11:07) ⁓ Yeah, little Marco. is an impact, and that impact's we haven't seen it yet. It hasn't happened yet, but it is coming, and we might, you know, be reaping the rewards of these really poor choices, these folks that were not qualified to do the job. some of them are qualified. successful people. I'm not saying they're all idiots or morons. But they're not necessarily qualified for the roles that they're in or have too many roles and they can't do the job that they're supposed to do. I mean I find it fascinating that the State Department is not playing any role in the negotiations with that's Stunning to me. I mean David (11:46) You would e you would expect a State Department to have something to do with negotiations with foreign entities? I Collar me surprise there, Robbie. Rob (11:52) I I yeah. So there was a book way back during the first Trump administration called The Fifth Yeah, yeah, yeah. Drink again. God damn. just right. They're dropping out left and right at this point. I I believe it was called the Fifth Estate and it was talking about all these cabinet positions and the incredibly critical role they play David (11:59) Jesus Christ, these people aren't gonna make it through this episode. Rob (12:14) the lives of us and then the safety of the United States and how under the first administration, they were just mishandled. There there was no preparation, no real forethought. It was almost like they separate thing. It it's almost like Trump sitting in the Trump Tower. do you think he actually thinks about the kitchen and how the kitchen works? No, he doesn't. it's just was assumed that they would take care of themselves and that's really not how works. We do have lots of federal service employees who are dedicated and they do their job and I'm sure they're trying to hold it together as best they can. but I do think this is set of chickens that will come home to roost eventually. David (12:52) Yeah. Okay, just opening topic, want to talk about that because we talked about it last week and now we have this new person they're trying to push through actually relatively quickly, I think before Tulsi is actually completely out of the role. so we've options. One, a really, really terrible option, two probably equally as terrible as far as the qualifications to do the particular job, but much more qualified to do a job, so that's nice. But I don't want anyone, to be fooled by this particular sleight of hand. But before we move on, we have ads. So as many of you know, Robbie has been a little bit bored lately, and apparently when he's been left unsupervised, he starts pitching television shows. So in an effort to expand shrink the nation into a multimedia empire. Robbie's purchased a little bit of advertising on today's show to test some concepts he's been developing for Netflix executives. The results are concerning. Rob (13:42) Hey well, hey you know why I purchased the ad space on this show? We're cheap. we're dirt cheap. So yep. David (13:50) the commercials today, I guess, are gonna be related to that. So here we go. from executive producer Dr. Robbie comes the next evolution in reality television. Age of attraction, family edition, 24 adoptees, 24 biological parents, one tropical island. And a production team that apparently skipped several mandatory ethics seminars. Watch contestants search for love, discover themselves, and occasionally discover why family trees exist. Early reviews have been mixed, very mixed, one reviewer called it the first dating show to require a therapist, a genetic counselor, and outside legal counsel. Another simply wrote, I made it fifteen minutes. Age of Attraction Family Edition because some ideas should stay in the pitch meeting. Streaming exclusively on Netflix for now. That one's kinda rough, Robbie. Rob (14:36) well, you know, it was sti it was it it was stimulated by an article I I read. and I was fascinated by concept. and, you know, my thought is is that they're all gonna be on this island. No one really knows who's a related to who. And then we just see where it plays out. David (14:37) That that's gonna get dark. Yeah. Well, there's this a psychological phenomenon called that I've never heard of, apparently called genetic sexual and yikes. Rob (15:00) Yeah. That's what's stimulated. So my theory is David (15:03) Strike. Rob (15:04) That's true. my gosh, I'm killing people. of alcohol toxicity just went up by tens across the nation this morning. no that that's what stimulated it, the idea that that biologic relatives who are separated at birth and do not have the benefit of spending like their infancy and childhood together. At which point an aversion to sexual contact develops that if you separate them from birth and they never spend time de with each other, when you bring them back together, they have some weird sexual attraction for one another. And I I say we explore that and you know, Netflix seems to be the right medium. David (15:45) actually can be quite worse than the original age of attraction, but awful, awful, awful, awful. so Rob (15:51) I'm proud to say I have not watched a reality TV show in mm probably eight years. David (15:57) I know the concept of these. I know what the premise of these things are. an age of attraction I whole concept is nobody knows each other's age, but if you have eyes, you can s you can see the sixty year olds the people who are their fifties and sixties and the people in their twenties and thirties. you can see clearly Rob (16:14) Are you saying this guy's not gonna pass for the twenty three year old? Come on, look at this face. Look at this face. David (16:17) Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so, yeah, the whole concept now I cannot tell you that I've sat down and watched this show, but I've seen the ads for it and it's pretty bad. I think the only thing to make it worse would be that half of are you know, adopted children that nobody knew about and the other half are the adopted parents that nobody knew about and just see what happens. I bet it would be awful and tragic. Rob (16:40) it's a terrible idea. Just terrible. David (16:42) Yeah. Yes. Yes it is, but there is a there is an article that speaks to it in the was it the Times of London or the New Times of London, something like that. well look it people will love it. Rob (16:43) She's done. Something like that. it was the Times of London I was twenty four when I met my biological father, then we had an affair. David (17:02) There we go. We'll put that in the comments. We'll link to the article if it's something people can see. so today, now that we're so deep into the show, really wanna talk about power. Rob (17:07) Okay. David (17:13) looks like, what's the draw of it at this point. are different types of power. but what really got me rolling down this path was a article where they sat down with Andrew Tate. And for anybody who doesn't know who Andrew Tate is, I envy you. Actually I I wish I were you and we could trade lots. because I didn't really know who Andrew Tate was and then I read this article and then I really wished that I didn't know who Andrew Tate was. Rob (17:27) Yeah. Yep. And the article was in The New Yorker. It's called Andrew Tate's Empire of Abuse, for our tens of listeners. David (17:45) I think really sums up So yeah, go read the article. I actually don't read the article. or read the article or don't. I don't care. Rob (17:52) No, I I'm gonna recommend you don't. It's disturbing on so many levels. but if you're curious about who Andrew Tate is, so apparently he was born in the States, raised in England, and he's he's become the manosphere icon. yeah. you can't say manosphere without flexing, I think a little bit. Just, you know. Yeah, just just David (18:10) Double double fist pumped flexed. Rob (18:14) Right. Maybe stand a kimbo. I'm gonna say he's an interesting guy. I don't mean that in in a positive way. he he has made his bones, his mark by basically capturing the largely the incel population. he likes to tout basically control over women, sexual violence, violent control of women, using them for prostitution and and money making. I think of what he does is like webcam girl stuff. David (18:40) not Yeah, not prostitute. So that's actually what kind of sparked a an interest in me when I was looking at it was that does use women not for prostitution, but for sex work. has this interesting thing. It it's that he wants to own women and he wants to exploit their bodies and their sexuality and everything for sex work, but what he doesn't want is he doesn't want other men to touch the women that he believes that he owns. And it got me thinking it was like an interesting well, yeah, exactly. he fully owns that he is pimping these women out, but a pimp who Rob (19:16) That's not primitive. David (19:24) Has such a who he has what what appears to be, I won't I don't won't say he does, but appears to be such a fragile ego that he doesn't want his property to be touched by others. He wants people to pay him to look at his property. he wants to exploit the property, he wants to abuse the property, he wants to extract everything he possibly can out of it, but he's terrified that if somebody else puts their hands on it. I don't know what. Like what's he what's he afraid of? that's the interesting thing. it's primitive, but it's so adolescent, or pre adolescence. it's this odd fear. I know it looks like a fear, and a lot of anxiety. And it seems like his his entire everything that he's doing. Is predicated on that he's afraid of losing everything if somebody else actually has anything to do with it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rob (20:11) If if these if these if these poor women have a choice and a voice, they're going to choose something else is what he's afraid of. I mean ultimately narcissistic individuals that under it all, at their core have a dependent core typically. and despite the fact that sometimes they can be, breathtakingly David (20:18) Yeah. Yeah. Rob (20:31) self confident, at least voice, breathtaking self confidence. I don't care how deeply narcissistic you are. There there is some little voice that whispers to you in the quiet moments that you're not as good as you pretend to be, that you don't have these qualities, that you will be abandoned. and it and and he he manifests this. I mean he lives a very well aesthetic. he has a certain aesthetic, it's an aesthetic life. and it's you know it's about muscles, it's about know beautiful women that he has control over who are completely bound to him it's about fast cars you know violence or the ability to engage in physical violence a very very primitive caveman archetypal kind of power. David (21:16) Yeah. caveman is a good way, right? It's like I have a big stick, I'm gonna go hit a woman over the head, drag her back to my place and she's my property. He just does this over and over and over again and then doesn't let them leave, but also won't let them interact with other people for realsies because they might not want to stay with him. you have to wonder. You have to wonder, because that external confidence is so in your face. Yet that fear that if anybody else is presented as an option, even in this, you know, sex work world they're not going to keep choosing you. It's like what what are you offering up that you're so afraid that if they sample another option, they're gonna go with that option that you're like don't you can't even try it. I don't know. I mean, it's dr go ahead and drink people because it's like it's like you're scooping up vanilla ice cream and you're terrified that everybody else has got Rocky Road. Rob (22:04) yeah. David (22:12) And chunky monkey and fish food and all these other options that they're just gonna go running for when you know you just got vanilla. Rob (22:18) Dude, your command your command of the Ben and Jerry's menu just freaked me out. David (22:23) Ben and Jerry's. the voice doesn't whisper to somebody who's this ex, you know, this this big. the voice is screaming in their head. don't have what they want or need. Don't you fucking let them try somebody else's ice cream. you got nothing, man. You got plain, non-dairy, low fat, unsweetened coconut milk that's been frozen. Don't let them try real ice cream. Rob (22:50) Which is I mean it it's the the core of narcissism. there's a healthy level of narcissism. We all have certain characteristics of narcissism. it is certainly one of the components of of confidence. it works when the underpinnings are intact. and we frequently I I mean for various reasons, very relevant to what we normally talk about, which is politics, we frequently reference narcissism. and narcissism is a is a defensive style. it's when a person protects a fundamentally unstable sense of self worth by needing admiration. control, special status, superiority, or exemption from the sort of normal rules that the rest of us live by. it's often marked by grandiosity, I'm the best, I'm the greatest, exaggerated sense of importance, a need for admiration, such as maybe putting your name on random buildings, maybe making money with your face on it. maybe. I mean there's I'm just, you know, I'm spitballing. Well what like if a narcissist could do those things. fundamentally though, they they have a a very fragile self-esteem. and criticism, embarrassment, rejection, or being ignored can just feel absolutely intolerable to them and in more extreme cases, will either trigger narcissistic injury and intense anger or can actually trigger you know this this destabilization of their personality structure. you know they tend to lack empathy, they tend to be entitled, they tend to exploit others for their own purposes. now th those are the pathologic sides, but when when we talk about narcissism just kind of as a a personality trait, you know, the reality is we're complex humans, all of us, and we have a mix of personality traits and a certain level of self-confidence, which would fall kind of in the narcissistic realm, that's not abnormal, and that's also not counterproductive, and it's also not dangerous. and we can, as humans, experience narcissistic injuries. So, are moments in your life where you discover you're not as important as you thought you were. those can be crushing. They can be a a an incredible struggle. That doesn't mean you're a narcissist. It just means that you faced a narcissistic injury. Now Andrew interestingly seems to fit the full personality disorder criteria. Now I'm gonna say seems to I've never evaluated the guy out in the manosphere enough that you you get that flavor. to also admit that what I see of him is his his public persona, and that does not necessarily mean that's his private behavior. David (25:18) Well and Yeah, one of the things that I think is really interesting about him is that when he has been faced with consequences for the actions that he very publicly puts into the manosphere on the social media and everything, that he's violent to women, that he basically keeps them for sex trafficking reasons and all this stuff. Whenever the police have come in and tried to arrest him, he quickly falls back to that's just a persona. I'm just putting that out there. and so it's really quick, but he also don't say hides under, but he really surrounds himself with this idea that being persecuted, he's been taking advantage of. The the whole system is rigged against him because the things that he's doing aren't considered legal. they're not moral, they're not ethical, they're not value-based in any way. and so the laws don't really align with what he is showing everybody. But he also says, but I'm not really doing those things, while also saying, but I'm actually doing these things. So it's a it's just this really interesting ⁓ con Rob (26:29) Pesky things, pesky things like laws, morals, standards. There's just pesky. And I'm above that. David (26:31) Yeah. w this yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting live with this dichotomy of I'm this really big tough guy, but I'm not I'm not really. But I am. But I'm not really but you should give me your money because I'm this tough guy who does all these things, but when the cops come around, but I'm not really doing those things. But I am doing those things. that's that's why he's Interesting. And it's a it's a tough read if you think read anything about him, unless you were an incel, in which case you're not listening to us. And if you are an incel listening to us, please Rob (27:03) We have no interest in your your no, that's actually not true. Stick around, maybe you can stop being an incel by the end of this. Let's hope. so Tate is interesting because he's such a object lesson in narcissism and and you can see through and it's almost anger inducing because he he really does have considerable amount of wealth. David (27:06) no, no, stay just just Maybe yeah, maybe learn something. Yeah, learn learn something. Let's not be an incels. Rob (27:26) and success and what he does. And it's for me, I find it actually irritating he's capitalizing on narcissism in the way he is. At any rate, he's interesting just because he's such an object lesson. I I think the more interesting thing is that narcissists tend to allow for projection. in a powerful way, in a way that is unique to narcissists. I'm more interested in how did he capture enough of the manosphere, of the, you know, the world's attention to make the kind of money he is. what is it about him that makes all these, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of men, mostly, I assume. I I don't know what his his female watcher ship is, but h how did he capture their imagination in such a way that they're paying him to you know, I think he's d he guys does like pimping classes or something like that or what they're called. David (28:24) And we're gonna get right back to that after our next break. This fall, From the deep thoughts of executive producer doctor Robbie comes Jeopardy Gen Alpha, where contestants explain economics, history, and constitutional law using only the words Riz, Aura, Cooked, and Ohio. question. A period of economic contraction characterized by declining demand and rising unemployment. What is negative aura? Rob (28:42) Low key. Low key. They to say low key too. David (28:51) Correct. Jeopardy Gen Alpha. The first game show where nobody understands the contestants, including the contestants. I that's a winner, Robbie. That's a winner. I'd watch that. I'd watch that. Rob (28:58) I I I I think it is. I I I really do. ⁓ that's comedy gold right there. David (29:04) why is Andrew Tates so attractive to this group? And all I can think about is because he's a panzer. He's a tank. He's this form of power that's so overt that when you look at it you go, Holy I don't want to face that thing. it's so strong. It's so powerful. and if you're on a battlefield and you're running around with a gun and bombs are coming in, see a panzer, you're like, sign me up. But the problem, Robbie, is that the modern power, the modern battlefield isn't won by Panzers, there's drones, there's Intel, there's satellites, there's ballistic missiles, there's all the reasons that fucking Robbie, I would never ever get into a tank on a battlefield. Ever. No, God no. No. I mean Rob (29:53) No. No. the Ukrainian war taught us this. although I I will admit the death of the tank has oft been predicted and still hasn't come to be. But you make very valid points that in in this in this environment. me argue why, this is archetypal power. this is primitive power. This this resonates with us at a core level. is from our formative environment. the days in which physical power, the ability to control women, was the mark of power. So I think it resonates there, and then I think it also resonates with this population who feel powerless. they feel marginalized and unloved and unable to have a normal, healthy relationship. and what he is touting is that you don't have to go through the motions that are really required, you know, self-reflection, maturity, have something to offer. You've got to put some work in. ⁓ David (30:50) you don't have to have anything to Rob (30:53) personal grooming. you you've gotta do some stuff in order to earn the of another. and that's how it should be, 'cause your expectation is they're gonna earn yours. But he provides an avenue where it it's really not about relying on another person. David (31:11) Well, it is relying on another person. It's literally relying on a bunch of other people to prop you up and hold you up. It's just it's not relying on a a two-way street, right? It's not relying on a healthy relationship with a person. It's 'cause he absolutely relies upon everybody, right? He he relies upon everybody around him. Rob (31:16) Well, you're Well and and Well it it and and that's the Well, he does. He he does. But I what I'm talking about is is in a relationship you are relying on, you have to have faith and trust in another human that they are going to return your affections, that they are gonna find you worthy and they're gonna stay. And he offers a path in which that uncertainty, the ambiguity of life, the the potential. That your partner could get up on any given day and deem you unworthy. That I'm done. it removes that. he doesn't have to face that ambiguity because he controls it physically. So it offers this in cell population, this path to guaranteed relationship, not the kind that would actually be satisfying or healthy, but guaranteed relationship. David (32:06) Yeah. Rob (32:14) a very primitive archetypal stance and it feels achievable because he gives classes and you can learn to do this. David (32:23) for the low price of forty nine ninety five a month, you can you can get access to all of his rants. what you just said, I I think is interesting because it really goes back to where we started with is that it doesn't remove the fear, it looks like it removes the fear that that person is gonna up and leave, but he constantly lives with that fear that that person is going to Rob (32:25) A month. David (32:46) abandon him, which is why he uses them, but he keeps them far, far away from other people. I believe they had a compound or something in Romania with armed guards and stuff like that where they housed all these women. and so he does have the fear. He's just selling this idea that he doesn't even though he just sets up this control system to protect himself from that loss and I guess you know if we were gonna dive in a little bit deeper would say protecting himself from that potential for loss by by saying, well I didn't really care about them anyway, if they do leave. it's a really interesting thing, but but why is it so it it attractive looks achievable to somebody who has failed to achieve any semblance of that to this point. the fact that he's so popular, and maybe that's a misinterpretation of what popularity is, because when we we exist in a world where he could sit there in Romania and do this and people in America or I don't know if he speaks other languages or not, or or Britain or wherever, thousands upon thousands of people. That's that is a lot of people, Robbie. It's way the hell more than listen to us for sure. but in the grand scheme of the eight billion people on the planet, thousands of people, even a hundred thousand people, is actually not that many people, is it, Rob (34:05) You know, Matt's not my strong suit, but I think you just made a compelling argument that in the eight billion, a hundred thousand's not that much. Yeah. David (34:13) we look at this and we read an article about this guy and we go, What the fuck? How do a hundred thousand people spend fifty bucks a month listening to this this stuff? when Rob (34:23) You know though, in tod in today's world with so many things competing for attention, I I I might make the argument that from a market share standpoint, he he does have a exceptional amount of exposure and power in that realm just just by virtue of the fact that, you know, there there's so many ways that our attention gets pulled. gathers a a significant amount. And he you know, he's made his way into the MAGA world. there there's been you know, numerous examples of MAGA people, JD Vance, President Trump, being relatively complimentary of the guy from their stance of recapturing manhood kind of thing. if manhood is keeping women locked up in a house with armed guards so that you can show them on sex cams, I'm okay with not being Part of it. David (35:09) Or or maybe we need to break into MAGA more. Maybe that's our problem, Robbie, is that we've not we've not catered as well to MAGA. how could we do this? do we get in on this manosphere thing? What do we do? Rob (35:20) you know, so h here's I mean this is a gonna be a world according to Rob moment, folks. so feel free to there's not a book, I haven't written it yet. David (35:26) Is there a book? Rob (35:29) MAGA sense of manhood is very caricatured, exceedingly caricatured, and it is based on narcissistic image of is power, often confused with physical power, but just power. Power, influence, control. And when I step back And think of this is a Jungian thing, but when I think of the archetype of the father, there is some elements of that. father is supposed to be a protector, to control the environment for the safety of the family. but there's other important elements to manliness that that archetype teaches us, which is empathy, which is emotional safety. for the that we care for, that we take care of. It's self-sacrifice. it's compromise. and well, it's compromise, and if you can't, then it's self-sacrifice. it's the needs of the other over the needs of yourself. And that's what's not captured whatsoever in the MAGA manliness. And it's not captured in this manosphere thing. and that's largely why it to the incel population. David (36:36) Well what's interesting too, I think, is the thing that's difficult to kind of put your finger on as to why it can be kind of distasteful to you if you don't subscribe to its version of manlyhood, is that it's so based deeply in victimhood as well. the entirety of their argument is that You have to take power back because it's being stolen by somebody else. And they typically will say it's being stolen by by women wanting to be part of the conversation, wanting to have jobs and that it's being stolen from you. Rob (37:06) DEI. David (37:14) And so you have to go in and physically take it back by force. And what interesting about that is that it's so weird to build power for yourself through the lens of being a victim of everybody else by saying the only reason that I can't be successful isn't because of anything that I haven't done. it's because somebody else is preventing from holding me back from being seen as Rob (37:38) Holding it So that gives away the narcissism of that stance, because the narcissism is I'm entitled. and it also just screams a fragile sense of self. It's not that I can't do it, it's that it's being held back from me. it's not that I'm not putting the work in, it's not that not making the effort. it's not that I might fail, because those are things that mature adults have to face. that all right, what's my responsibility? I could try as as hard as I want and still fall short. That's something we all have to live with with every endeavor we engage in. But because it's such a fragile sense of self, they've removed that. They've taken that that side away. It's it's not a personal thing. It's not a personal responsibility. It's an entitlement that is being held back from them. So the whole stance is narcissistically focused. I mean the whole stance. It's also ridiculously white. it's white malehood is really and and that's I'll call it fascinating, but a sign of the times. this is an unsettling time for a lot of people. and it does not surprise me that they are grabbing on to a narcissistic vision because it's easier and they don't have any responsibility. They don't have to make it happen. They just have to bitch and moan until someone gives it to them. David (38:58) think what's interesting too is that this overarching Coloring of the entire situation in that it reframes what power is and where it comes from. And I think what it does is it it misinterprets the reality of the situation because you're not feeling powerless because women are getting jobs, because women are are going to college. and even to gain the power back isn't isn't dominating other human beings because the real power, and I think this is where we get back to the whole pains or thing, the power isn't in demonstrating strength in that way. power comes from Wealth, it comes from influence. I mean, real power comes from money at this point. I mean, we live in this world where it's not it's not the Panzers, it is the drones, it's the satellites, it's the ability to massively communicate from a distance with these things. and so viewing this feeling that I think a lot of us have, all of us have, in that our ability to control our world. is becoming more difficult and it's being pushed further and further away. I mean, Andrew Tate tries to convince people they can gain power by lifting weights, kicking people in the face, and locking women up and forcing them to do sex shows. We, on the other hand, try to control that anxiety by having a podcast. Rob (40:11) Controlling women, yeah. Mm-hmm. David (40:17) And calling out the power. Rob (40:18) we try to make coherence. That that's the way we're approaching it. want to have at least a coherent story to explain it. But yeah, you're you're absolutely right that world is shifting so quickly, we all feel a sense of powerlessness and are are having maybe increasing difficulty figuring out where we fit. and how do we hold on to what we have or or how do we ensure that our children are able to and it is incredibly unsettling. well, because we're doing it, I would wager or say that at least trying to bring some coherence and understanding to it is a higher level coping mechanism than the Andrew Tates, the incels, the performative w give me, give me, give me, like you're a three year old and if you stomp your foot long enough, you know, someone will finally give in. so, apples and oranges maybe, but there's a thread there and I concur with you. David (41:11) Well and I our level of bringing coherence to it involves drinking bourbon and sitting in the garage, whining into the camera, Rob (41:18) less healthy coping mechanism that we frequently utilize, no doubt, when the anxiety gets so much, just saturate the GABA receptors and see what happens. David (41:27) it does work sometimes. I do feel better. debatable, but I I would say that you look at the people who are truly powerful, and most of them tend to be really quiet about it, but it's it's the billionaires, right? And we now have a trillionaire. which and I guess you might argue that the loudest of the billionaires, is now the trillionaire, so perhaps that is how one but that's the control. I mean that's where you have the ability to s Lars Floss Rob (41:50) Have you noticed something with those billionaires? thinking of Bezos and I'm thinking of Zuckerberg. That you know they they achieved their power via very nerdy techno ways, right? So then they they get that power and and both of them have you noticed that they've both beefed up that like Zuckerberg, I think, has been training for MMA. David (42:02) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rob (42:13) And you know, got got fit and muscular. that David (42:15) Yeah. I mean Bezos looks a lot better now than he did before. Zuckerberg doesn't, but definitely when Bezos started out, yeah, he looked rough. But now he looks dude's like ripped. He's I mean he's bald, but he looks he looks he looks good. Zuckerberg looks like a guy that I would gladly climb into the MMA ring happily. I mean I would love to. Rob (42:27) Yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓ well I I'm not saying that he's I'm just saying that if you look at Zuckerberg 10, 15 years ago and Zuckerberg now, they achieved power, but they still were driven have that primitive kind of look of power and you know, fighting and whatever. Zuckerberg couldn't couldn't beat a soapy pecker. David (42:44) Yeah. Yeah. No. I I actually do know what that means, but that's horrible. I I would be I'll be interested to see because Zuckerberg tends to be, I think more overtly, goes with w whoever is in power. Like he just kind of follows, you know, when it was Obama, it was Biden, he he was very, very left. When it's Trump, he just swings really, really right. And so I think he's he's not so good at navigating those relationships. Or maybe he's really, really good at navigating those relationships and nobody he's just had so much money, nobody gives a shit. and Elon Musk kinda did the same thing, but he's really, really I mean, he's really pushed it to to the right, buying X and you know, turning that into the cesspool that it is at this point. not that it wasn't probably cesspoolish before, but it it certainly is now. Bezos is I think a little bit quieter. about it. and he doesn't control a a social media company. And so maybe that's a piece of it is that you just don't get the same public types of swings. he's just you know launching penis looking rockets into the sky as one does. Freudian all the way. what really kind of drags me back to is that there's some illusion to that kind of power as well. because it's not the physical strength, the caveman archetype, right? It's not that. even though they are trying to beef up a little bit. this different type of power that's influence-based, right? It's control-based. It's the ability to make these decisions and have so much money behind it that you can do whatever you want. But what I really think the key, is an illusion in our own minds that even I have to like see and turn off because The true power with humanity doesn't lie and can't lie and really never has existed with with any one individual person. Temporarily that person can create the illusion of having that power. But true power for humans is in the power of the collective. we are social beings. Our entire existence as it is today has been through our ability to socially determine how a society exists, the power lies with the masses. and that's that to me is I think where we we have to get back to, we have to understand is that these people who are creating this illusion of power, the billionaires, the billionaires are only billionaires because they have figured out a way to a mass wealth and most of it through, you know, social media, it's through these these platforms that we're just pouring money at. But even as we're talking about Zuckerberg, Zuckerberg just goes with the times, right? He just goes with whoever's in power and says, Yep, you're right. Yep, you're right. Yep, you're right. So he understands that his power, his money, his fortune, everything that he has that allows him to exert control is predicated on the will of the people. that's the thing that we have to realize is that when it comes to politics, when it comes to influencers, when it comes to social media, it's those of us and all of us really who are determining what is deemed powerful by what we're giving our attention to with the attention economy. it's what we're allowing to happen. through our votes. It's what we are collectively doing. And what this conversation, this draw of attention to, the caveman aesthetic, this acquiescence to these billionaires being so powerful that we can't do anything about it. it's all false. Because the one thing that we all retain as individuals is free will. We don't have to vote for MAGA. hell, we don't have to vote for whoever the Democratic Party decides is gonna be there. two good examples actually would be Mom Dani and now Plattiner. These are two people that even the Democratic Party was like, Whoa, whoa, these are these people have crazy ideas. We don't want we don't want them to be elected. And yet the people said we do. I want to be helpful, but I mean also hopeful that people realize and the lens out from your eyes think that these people are so powerful there's nothing you can do. Complete and utter bullshit. You do not have to. Rob (47:05) yeah, we can we can stop using Amazon, we can stop buying Tesla, we can stop using Facebook. We we have power, we're just not taking it. The the the issue though, I I think is that that kind of power actually defies our sort of fundamental understanding. that it is so different and so broad and so outside of what we're kind of structured to recognize as power that We have a difficult time actually even conceptualizing that kind of power. whereas the sort of primitive power is easy to fall for. power is easy to recognize, it's easy to see, it's loud, it's shiny, it's horny, it's angry, it's poorly supervised. so we can see that. David (47:45) think he just gave us the the next ad for our show. Rob (47:49) Okay. We're loud, we're shiny, we're horny, we're angry, and we're poorly supervised. Yeah, yeah, that's that's good. total by accident, you know, sometimes the epiphanies just roll in. So at any rate, identifying that kind of power, recognizing it, either agreeing with it, wanting to emulate it, or being repulsed by it, that's easy because it's easy to recognize. David (47:50) Strength the nation. Rob (48:10) The kind of power you're talking about is very difficult to conceptualize because we're just not designed to even fathom the kind of power that a trillionaire has. So at any rate, I think we should put a in the head of this this episode. David (48:25) We will, but not until we complete this next commercial break. So from the twisted mind of executive producer Dr. Robbie comes the next big event. The Real Housewives at Possum Creek. This season, a friendship ends, a marriage is tested, and Marge's cousin Billy Bob wins five hundred dollars on a scratch off ticket. Watch his accusations fly, alliances crumble. Rob (48:27) god. David (48:49) And an above ground pool installation tears the community apart. The real housewives of Possum Creek, because drama is free. Rob (48:56) Folks, I feel like David's picking at my Appalachian heritage right now. David (48:59) This is your show, Robbie. This is your idea Rob (49:01) J j just just the tip, just for a second, just to see how it feels. All right. You got any prescriptions today? I do have one and and i it is, you know, inspired by Andrew Tate. So we as a nation must see a primitive power display and don't ask, is this man strong? We have to ask what's the vulnerability that this performance is trying to bury? Healthy Strength doesn't need constraint. Healthy strength doesn't need constant theatrical confirmation. Healthy masculinity can tolerate limits, it can cooperate, it can apologize, it can protect without possession. There is a pathway to manliness that is not primitive. But step one is recognizing these primitive displays are really just hiding a vulnerability. David (49:51) I like it. I like it. My prescription is for our tens of listeners. and one is to share us with somebody that you would Rob (50:01) Don't like wait. David (50:02) Or like, that you think might be helped by having some of these conversations. but the next thing is to Take a moment to think about what you maybe aren't thinking about as far as who is in control of our society. we have these incomprehensible, unfathomably rich people who have a lot of influence, but they're only one person. and the money can only go so far. But what you are is an individual who has the ability to think and and act for yourself. so when you think about where are these billionaires, are our politicians deriving their power from? The answer is you. realize the best way to strip those who are trying to trying to shape the rest of our lives through their own individual perspectives is through our actions or lack thereof and the decisions that we're making. So if we're on social media, we're giving power to whoever owns it. If we're, purchasing products from these people, we're giving them power. Step one isn't to go in and detox from everything. just make yourself aware throughout your day of what it is that we're doing providing power to all these people. I don't think you're ever gonna completely limit all their money, they don't have to shape you, you can shape them. and that's probably where the ones who have been the most successful have thrived is that they just go along with what the people are asking for. And so what I'm saying is Ask for what you want in what you're doing instead of just going with whatever's being pushed your way. All right. Well, that's it. I think we've hit our max. any closing thoughts, ideas? Rob (51:40) no, I left it all on the field. David (51:42) All right. Well, if you're a Netflix executive interested in any of the concepts that Robbie brought to you today, then please contact him directly. not because I support these ideas or anything, but because I think he should have to explain them in front of a lawyer. so there we go. All right. Well, thank you so much everybody for joining us. Please do share us if you can. and Like us, hit subscribe, do all those things to get more of us. And then hopefully next time we can bring a little bit more bourbon to our party. And hopefully those of you who played our drinking game can sober up before you make any further bad decisions. So That's it. cue up that Let's cue up that music and we are out. Rob (52:17) Have a good one, folks.