Jessica Foster Isn't Real. The Loyalty Is.

David (00:00) Here's the vibe for this week. We're living in an environment where reality testing has become socially expensive. Not hard, expensive. Because the question isn't, is this true as much as what happens to me if I say it isn't? And once a story starts paying out, attention, belonging, status, people stop defending facts and start defending membership. So today, we're going to talk about how incentives and reinforcement loops can make obviously shaky narratives feel safer than reality. This is Shrink the Nation. Let's go. David (01:12) Hey, I'm David. I've got my 20 plus in the military. I'm a board certified psychiatrist. Tonight. I'm not drinking anything. I just got some water here. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I want to sleep later and alcohol does not allow for a good quality sleep. But last night I got a 99 score with my watch and Rob (01:21) Just some water. Yeah, ⁓ David (01:33) I want to keep that up because I feel pretty good sleeping. Yeah. Yeah. Rob (01:36) Yeah, it's amazing what sleep will do for you. Last night I did not get a 99. Yeah, I'm traveling and I've been in parts unknown for a few days and I don't sleep well when I'm traveling. But yeah, it's Rob. I've got my 26 in psychiatry and 30 in the military and took a week off. David (01:42) You look it. You look like hell. Rob (02:00) And here we are yet again to talk. David (02:02) Not feeling, not feeling refreshed whatsoever. you just didn't take that week and use of it, Robbie. Rob (02:08) as you know, life, man, life. Life's got some responsibilities. David (02:12) entire couple of weeks that we weren't doing this, I was doom scrolling the internet and looking ridiculousness. Yeah. want to start off talking about story that's been kind of floating around. There's a young woman, attractive. Rob (02:18) Crazy shit. David (02:28) who is an Instagram model that is MAGA and ARMY. And she's been garnering a lot of attention lately. Rob (02:32) Yeah. What's her name? Jennifer? David (02:37) It's Jessica Foster, I believe. Rob (02:40) Of course it is, Jessica, Jessica Foster. David (02:42) Yeah, it's Jessica Foster and she has been attracting a lot of MAGA people mainly because she posts a lot of pictures with Donald Trump doing various things the army. And what's interesting about her. Rob (02:53) Yeah. David (02:57) is that she's not Yeah. She has had a impressive career She's got a hero stack of medals on her mini dressed out uniform. Rob (02:58) She doesn't exist. Yeah, that does make it interesting. She's a Staff Sergeant. David (03:12) I mean, there are generals, I think, walking around with maybe not as impressive ribbon stacks that she has. Rob (03:18) an impressive one, but it's not really. When you actually look at it, it makes no sense. Now, I'm gonna give it to the AI that, so when you look at a stack of medals, the top medals tend to be awards, the middle medals tend to be service, such as like Iraq service, Afghanistan and then the bottom tend to be training. ribbons and they kinda hit it, kinda, but some inconsistencies when you really look at it. There's some repetition, some devices on there that don't make any sense. They also fucked she's got US Army on her name tag instead of her name. David (03:59) it's her first name on her name a different one. Rob (04:01) On a different picture, it says Jessica. Yeah. David (04:04) And she's also got this skin tight shirt with her midriff visible posing with Donald Rob (04:10) Well, then there's pink and green uniforms, the new green dress uniform, AGSU, where she's got a miniskirt on that damn near shows her hoo-ah. David (04:24) looking at one where she's sitting on of midships a destroyer. It looks like with she's got she's got the airborne patch on as well. So always really impressive. But she spends a lot of time with Donald Trump. Rob (04:31) She gets around, man. She's really, she's all service. Yeah, yeah. you know, another thing is on use her army green service uniform. She's got there's some device on her shoulder and for an enlisted soldier, there are no devices on those shoulder for those uniforms. It's not bad. It's impressive, actually, what off it would stand probably most people's smell test if they weren't real familiar with these uniforms. It didn't catch my eye. I tell you what caught my eye was the mini skirt. I'm like, I don't think that's I don't think that's regulation. So, you know, having been put in the position of calling people out when out of regulation for always a little hesitant because, you know, I don't memorize that shit. I just I know what looks right for, you know, a man my rank. But anyway, did my interest. Now, here's what's interesting is that it caught the eye of what she's got 100,000 followers, something like that. David (05:38) Yeah, I think, I mean, we're not here to, I guess, talk about fake influencers on the internet. We're here to kind of talk about the psychology behind why a hundred thousand people Rob (05:47) Mm-hmm. David (05:51) looking at this to that extent where they're fans of it, they're liking it. And I think a lot of people were actually reaching out and trying to get her to respond when it was clearly. Rob (05:59) Yeah, you never respond to me. David (06:03) Yeah. I mean, I wrote to her all the time, Robbie. She never sent anything back. I was very offended. ⁓ Rob (06:08) You know, here's the other thing. She's got a, I don't know, only fans or fans only. I never get that right. One's for football and one's for porn. And I don't know which one's which. She's got, yeah, she's got, well, interestingly, you just type in both and it'll, you eventually get to where you want to go. You know, one wants you to bet and one wants you to pay for other things. David (06:20) Sure you don't. You get a boat. Rob (06:31) or no, no, she's on, fan view. David (06:34) is it not OnlyFans? I don't know what it was. I thought it was It's foot fetish photos, apparently. Rob (06:36) Right. Yeah, yeah, that's the other thing that's in there, which is definitely out of rags. Yeah, definitely. David (06:46) Well, I guess it wouldn't matter. I don't know. But I have this philosophical question. if a fan of MAGA is masturbating to a picture of Jessica Foster and Donald Trump. Because she's not real, is it technically just them masturbating to a picture of Donald Trump? Rob (07:01) Mm-hmm. I like how you framed it as philosophical. David (07:08) I guess I was thinking like if a tree falls in the woods and nobody's around to hear it doesn't make a sound if a MAGA fan masturbates to a picture of a girl that doesn't exist that also has Trump in it Rob (07:12) Yeah, yeah, I don't know, but I'll tell you interesting to me doing a little bit of research on this, it does seem like the prevailing attack on it was look what MAGA fans like. But is no evidence that the 100,000 people that follow her are MAGA. just has 100,000 followers. you it is an attractive woman. She's, she's young and she's blonde. know, what, what would you put her at? 24, maybe? If David (07:52) Too young, too young, I think is what I would put her. But apparently based off of when she was created, she's like six months old. So, yeah. Rob (07:53) See, well, too young. She's six months which makes it even creepier. But no, I, you know, look at her and I think, she's 24, 25, something like that. And, you know, she's young, she's blonde. I think that in and of itself was probably enough to get a certain number of individuals to follow her. But when you factor in young blonde in uniform, David (08:02) There you go. Now it's pedophilia. Rob (08:21) I think the uniform actually gives a certain set of permissions to have certain feelings toward this young lady or at least adjust your in a way that ends up becoming psychologically acceptable, even though they come from a place that maybe for some of these folks, not exactly acceptable. And that's what actually ended up fascinating because we have no evidence to support that this predominantly a MAGA population supporting her, following her, wanting to see her feet. David (08:51) No, just a bunch of gross wanting to see her feet. MAGA, not MAGA, men that want to look at, or women, there might be women out I'm not here to, I'm sure. I think it's the pro MAGA messaging that goes with her profile. And I think that's the part that people probably are looking at when they, when they suggest that it's MAGA Rob (08:52) Just... And there's I'm sure some women following her to see her feet. you know. David (09:13) kind of brings into this idea. don't want to say this somebody who is trying to push the MAGA narrative, but it does look like it's somebody who is an attractive young woman, adding in the military, adding in pro-maga messaging, and then to draw in a very certain, a specific type of eyes and then shunting that over to paid content where they can make money. So I mean, it's money making. It's just doing it through. a very different channel. Rob (09:44) So I went to Instagram. I shadow account on Instagram so that I can, when someone forms me a stupid video, well, no, I have nothing posted. Well, nothing but feet. I have nothing but feet, yeah. My feet, who the hell wants to look at mine though? Yeah, exactly, exactly. David (09:50) so they can look at your feet. Sure, yeah, there you go. Oh God, 30 years in boots. Oh God. Awful. Oh, look homeless. Your feet probably look like they belong to lives under a bridge. Rob (10:06) I don't have great, great you know, ashy, ashy that's. Ugh. David (10:20) ⁓ God, people are gagging right now. Imagining your feet. That one weird little fucking toenail sticking out. Rob (10:28) or toe that just goes in the wrong direction there. like, what are you doing there, buddy? It's like one eye hunting and one eye Off it goes. So I did look at the site and the creator of that site did end up posting a video in which how he makes her. David (10:31) ⁓ Rob (10:46) how he does this. It I realize nobody's clicking on me any longer. This is how I did it. And he shows for creating these videos. pretty complex. mean, he has to animate it. not totally AI generated, so he's doing some magic on his end. What was interesting to me is he had a really thick Indian accent. Indian as in from India, the country. So he selected MAGA population specifically. He's not a part of that. He wasn't pushing the agenda. He selected a MAGA population. He selected a military target. you know, and it's ridiculous if you actually look at the photos, which I did, I'll admit, I was curious. like one picture is with Trump, Zelensky and her. The next picture is Putin and her. The next picture is her in front of an F-22. The next picture is her on a destroyer. The next picture is her in Greenland. 30 years in, yeah, 30 and around army. David (11:49) Impressive career. Rob (11:54) I promise you, I've not been to every hotspot. just doesn't work out that way. I have ended up in hotspots at times, totally random, totally by accident, totally didn't like it. any rate, he targeted this population. Psychologically, why? What was his thought process? David (12:11) he trying to get money, obviously he wasn't, and it doesn't look like he was doing it for political purpose. He wasn't trying to get money politics. he saw a population that Rob (12:14) yeah. No. David (12:20) go for it. mean, it's a very specifically picked things that would kind of shut down bells of somebody. And it was surprisingly we need to figure out how to do this, for those of you who haven't seen Robbie, he is a beautiful year old something very stacked. wears a lot of tight shirts. Rob (12:33) know, if, if, if, I'm, with her. I do, I do. I'm a beautiful woman really gorgeous feet. Really gorgeous feet. You just don't look at it. Don't look at it. yeah, no, no, you just put one hand over an eye. You're good. Yeah, just ignore it. David (12:41) Robbie's gorgeous. Yeah, beautiful woman. He is. Sip that one toe. Or not to look at it, Robbie. okay. There you go. Rob (13:04) No, you know, he targeted his population. Apparently, my sense is at he had the idea that these are vehement, a really passionate group. We'll put it that way. They're a passionate group. And that if he framed this young lady in, you know, swathed her in the flag, he would get. more attention or she, it, whatever you call this now, get more attention, which is interesting to me because really what we're talking about, mean, fundamentally, no one can look at those pictures and not see the sexuality to it. But sexuality is not that simple. It's not that straightforward and not everyone's that comfortable with sexuality. So the fact that he swathed her in the flag, put her in uniform and then had, and I did look at some of the comments. They did seem to be from older men mostly. And these older men were just drooling over her as a service member So the service member piece was important to them. Look at her earning every one of those stripes and she's smoking David (14:14) haha Rob (14:15) So there is something there psychologically that made the sexuality safe for a subset of individuals. Now, have I assessed the 100,000 followers plus? No, I do not know. I did a random sampling and probably zoned in on the clearly like old dude phraseology. drew my attention. But, you know, this guy I'm giving him I'm going to give him credit. He smoking hot, 24, 25, put her in uniform, made her a goddamn hero. She's even got a CIB. She's got a combat infantry badge. And she's 24 years old. She's got a combat infantry badge. Where have you been in combat? David (14:56) Yeah. Rob (14:59) in the last, you know, six years. No, that ain't happening. But she's got a she's got a CIB and, you know, she's airborne. She's she's like, she's like Rambo with lingerie with fishnets. David (15:08) Sometimes. mean, I think that's a of it. Yes. But she was also, you know, really pushing forth a Aga perspective. mean, it was, was, she was touting that belief. And if we, you know, just a few days ago, there was a poll that showed that a hundred percent of MAGA supporters, 100 % of is, 100 % of MAGA is supportive of Donald Trump, are numbers. There was a CNN on Wednesday, the war on Iran had entered its third week, Rob (15:34) Wait, 100 % Bye. What poll was this? 100%. Ugh. David (15:53) There was a poll that found 100 % of self-identified MAGA voters 0 % the level cognitive dissonance that goes into don't been a any other president, and there have been lot of presidents who had gotten a hundred percent of the base. is Rob (16:20) I know other leaders in history that have received that. David (16:23) Right. Yes. But what other it's an off-putting number. Rob (16:27) think his title was president, wasn't it? Wasn't Hitler's title president? David (16:32) do think that plays a role the popularity and part of why it was easy to overlook some of the obvious things. mean, what staff sergeant is posing with the the Oval Office whilst wearing half their uniform. I mean, it doesn't happen, when you are to a point mid military operation, 100 % of the people are behind that's getting into Rob (16:45) non-zero. Yep, zero. David (17:02) a Rob (17:03) Well, I'm utterly dying, dying to process the events in Iran. just don't feel comfortable doing it. And for our tens of listeners, the rationale and why I do not feel comfortable doing it has to do with US service people in harm's way. So I don't feel we're at a particular point. Now, down the line, six weeks, eight weeks, whatever this comes to an end. talk about this, but right now I'm of the sense that it's not the right time to. David (17:37) Yeah, I admire your optimism on that, what I really look at though is that in a situation something is being done that is 100 % the opposite of what was being said, would not even lower an approval rating by 1%, Rob (17:50) Yes. David (17:58) somebody who is a, I like this president. That is somebody who loves this president. And maybe even so much that they would grab onto themselves whilst looking at a picture that he's in because there's another person in it who happens to be hot, but is it real? So what does that tell you, Robbie? Rob (18:15) ends up justifying their sexual attraction when in fact it's not that that create AI created thing David (18:22) will tell you, not looking at a fucking lamp sitting next to him and cranking one out. But there's no damn difference. Rob (18:32) God, don't even have a follow-up for that. nailed circle know we have another thing we want to talk about today, but you brought up an interesting point. the support Donald Trump seems to engender. the psychological mechanism on that? David (18:54) several things. It's not just one thing. I guess that's the tough part. I think it hits in a lot of different ways, but we, we live in a world now create our chambers. we narratives forward. So people are only hearing the things that Rob (19:10) Mm-hmm. David (19:11) evidence previously had shown that people who did not read the news, but got most of their news through social media were much more likely to supporters. you have several things happening, but also this kind of goes into cognitive dissonance. any attack upon person. is an attack upon me and my personality and who I am. And so I'm going to support him even there's a point at which, and I think we've hit that, where so this particular belief structure any evidence against into evidence for it. You absolutely will see this with. doomsday colds, they will absolutely know that the end of the world is coming on this particular day, and they will be there and be ready for it. And when that doesn't occur, rather than them sitting back and going, ⁓ it was all bullshit, I should on with my life instead, because it's psychologically too difficult to pull that together. they say, that's further evidence to support whatever the belief structure is because we must have done something to stop the end of the war. this is what I think I'm seeing think there would be a big question about that, but once you get to a 100 % approval rating from your fan base, where you can literally do no wrong, think you're getting into that territory. And I just don't have a way to say otherwise. Rob (20:36) definitely getting in that territory and it's the territory of conspiracy theorists. psychological territory at least. an old joke that I just adore and I tell it way too much. guy dies, goes to heaven, and he meets God. And God says, hey, welcome. Here's the thing I do. Every new person up here, I let you ask one question give you the answer, the straight answer. And the guy asks about his particular conspiracy theory. And God smiles and says, yeah. A lot of people believe in that, just not true. It's just not a thing. I don't know where that got started. I don't know how it It's just not true. And the guy stands there nods his head and says, holy shit, this goes higher than I ever imagined. So almost ranges into in our world, delusional disorder. That delusional disorders are interesting conditions in that they are not psychotic disorders. So, for our tens of listeners, disorder is often associated with delusions, but it's also associated with disorganization of thought, negative symptoms such as withdrawal, difficulty emotion, difficulty expressing emotion in a normal way. So those with psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia, they a set of symptoms, one of which is often delusions. And sometimes they're paranoid delusions or sometimes they're bizarre delusions. know, aliens from Saturn have injected microchip into my brain or more often than not, the FBI, CIA has done that. Whereas delusional disorders and with psychotic disorders, they tend to have an onset for men on the average of age 19 for women somewhere around to mid 20s. So they tend to have an onset earlier. And if you trace it backwards, there's a prodromal syndrome in which individuals who end up developing these symptoms have an onset of symptoms earlier. in a degradation in their function. Whereas delusional disorders, they tend to have an onset in middle life. These are individuals who are in their late 40s, 50s, early 60s, have lived a reasonably normal life, reasonably free of mental illness. And then all of sudden they develop this fixed delusion. And I'll use an example of you know, obviously without saying any names, but I once treated a woman was an administrator She had her own office and she had her own staff. She walked into her office one day and she had some student workers and we're talking back in the early days of cell phones. but she walks in and two of her student workers looking at the cell phone and they're laughing. she had never had this thought, but on that day, at that moment, she came to the conclusion that they were watching a video of her having sex. Why? don't know. So she came to me, I gave her the benefit of the doubt. mean, I see all kinds of people, you wanna videotape yourself having sex, hey, whatever, consenting adults do what consenting adults do. So I'm like, so do you videotape yourself? Never. Okay, so the delusion ended up expanding from there and that her husband was actually planting hidden cameras to videotape her. Is he a guy that would do that? Well, I wouldn't think so. Now I started to actually think, maybe he did, I don't know. Ended up meeting with him down the line and he's in tears. He loves this woman, they've spent life together, And he's crying in my office saying, I would never, and I believed him. that didn't feel like he was hedging on this one. At any rate, treated her interestingly, delusional disorders tend to be very, very resistant to medication treatment. But in her case, treated her within a week, disappeared. Her concerns disappeared. She came back, she was like, I don't know exactly what I was thinking. remember it. I can think of it, but it's gone. I'm not worried about it anymore. So treated her for a couple of months, at which point she said, you know what? I don't want to take these medicines anymore. And I said, okay, how about this? We'll stop them and we'll set an appointment for a couple of weeks. See how you're doing. Two weeks later, she comes back and she's like, there's videos of me. on the internet and I'm like, hmm, maybe we should restart this. And she said, I agree. At any rate, I lost the time and follow up. have no idea what ended up happening to her. But what this support reminds me of is level of commitment to a belief structure, fixed delusion. I don't want to call it a mental illness because ultimately I think it's more of a psychological phenomena. But % support it makes no sense. It's not human. David (25:39) a couple things. described, actually, I think a really rare case. What you described is probably a case that is easily treated. sounds like they're, yeah, notoriously difficult to treat a delusional disorder. There's a great book, and I have a book, so go ahead and drink your water. Rob (25:46) may be the only one in my career. All right. David (25:58) It's called Phantoms in the Brain by Vyas Ramachandran. And it's actually a terrific book for, I think, every psych resident or every psychiatrist who probably read the book, to get a better understanding neurologically why a lot of what we look at is just abnormal psychology tends to be more neurological issues. small strokes, things like that in certain parts of the brain that can result in some of these conditions. But what we're seeing to this scale, I don't see it as that. What it looks more a confirmation bias with an exposure and more, don't want to call it propaganda, but. more and more information that aligns with a belief process that results in the illusory truth effect where the more and more you hear something, the more true it becomes. I guess it would be, it functions like a delusional disorder, but it's not necessarily the same process that we classically think of that gets you there. It's I see it enough so it becomes true to me. And I only expose myself to things that agree with that truth to the point where it becomes my reality. Our brains are really incredibly complex, but not so complex that they can just do everything. And so the more that you hear something, the more true it becomes. And when you are surrounding yourself with that certain information, it will become. your reality in spite of anything else that comes your way and then you go out of your way to avoid as your brain does your brain will in this the book phantoms in the brain explains this beautifully with somebody who has a complete so they're paralyzed on half their body the brain doesn't understand that and so when You ask the guy, can you raise your right arm? He's like, great, he raises his right arm. It's all fine. He raised your left arm. Nothing happens because he can't. And you're like, well, did you raise your left arm? He goes, yep. And that's just because yeah, yes, I did. Because your brain once you've exposed it to something enough times that it becomes true, Rob (27:59) yeah, I did. David (28:09) can't tell the damn difference. if some information is presented to not going to accept it as reality it's like selling somebody. Yes, you can breathe underwater. Well, no, I can't. Yes, you can. No, I can't. It's not possible. And it's the same. Yeah, well, there you go. Well. There would be, yeah, if you made a video that showed that, yeah, but this is unfortunately, this is the world that we're living in. And as we've seen with Jessica Foster, the information, not just it's it's who doesn't exist. Rob (28:24) If you make a TikTok video, people will start to believe, there will be a rash of drownings around the nation. Yeah. So. Who doesn't exist, people? Just letting you know if she doesn't exist. David (28:47) at that point because even though of course a staff sergeant be in the Oval Office, a sergeant would never be wearing a miniskirt, walking the flight line with the President of the United States, wouldn't be doing any of these things. The reality must be want it to be. Rob (28:54) wearing a miniskirt. I'm a mini skirt. David (29:07) sounds more volitional than I think, than I intended to be. It's not because I want it to be, it's because I've heard it so much that my brain knows that it must be true because my brain can't accept the alternative, which goes into cognitive dissonance and everything else. Rob (29:21) Well, yeah, and we can go back in history and look at other cult of personality leaders. And I'm not gonna say any of them because none of them, it will sound pejorative. It will sound like I've got an ax to grind. But there have been many examples of cult or personality type leaders. And the fascinating thing to me about cult or personality leaders is that on one end, they have a really strong personality. have incredibly high personality needs in order to get to where they're at and the way they get there. But there's also an emptiness in their personality that allows the population to project their own personal needs into that space. that personality somehow is able to hold them. So for most of us, when an individual demands of us, projects upon us, it creates a great deal of anxiety in us. sure our tens of listeners have had this experience where they've had a colleague, a work friend, someone they went to school with, another friend who ends up projecting so much onto them that it just makes them feel uncomfortable. It's not a good experience and they can't keep it up. They can't hold it because... their ego boundaries will not allow for it. feel the wrongness of this. In somebody who has a certain personality structure that is so open and so in demand of adulation, of support, of reassurance constantly. So we're sitting at a very unique And really in the history of the world, even though I can't come up with multiple examples, they're not that common. They really aren't. The commonness of this kind of cult of personality, by, internet. zone that we live in, in allows for you to truly silo yourself into a certain echo chamber in which all you hear is what you want to hear. You really don't hear anything contra to what you want to hear. It is a truly a fascinating combination that leads to a 100 % support That never has happened, never exists. Now, you I guess I'm curious how they ended up separating out who is MAGA. Because I don't think there's 100 % support. In fact, the polls very clearly say. David (31:58) No, it's not. It's yeah, it's not. It's it's not 100 percent support in the U.S. It's 100 percent among self-identified MAGA supporters. So somebody who says, yes, I am MAGA. also says, and I love this guy. But the national approval is quite a bit different than that, even amongst Republicans. It's not that that approval doesn't exist to that extent. But that's why it's so interesting because of who is saying in this level of support when Even Reagan fans wouldn't have all said, I loved everything that he did. Like he was, um, no, no. Rob (32:35) No, would not have. So, nature of polls, I suppose. But there's a number of polls now looking at folks who identify as MAGA and the ones who tend to be America first MAGA. His support is slipping with them. David (32:50) Well, what's interesting is slipping war. It's still like 90 the war. asked, in favor of this war? 90 % will say yes. 10 % will say no. But if you say, are you in support of this guy? 100 % are saying Even though I don't support the war, I do support him. He's awesome and he's doing great. Rob (33:12) That's fascinating. David (33:13) It is really fascinating. It's mind blowing. speaking of projection, because you brought it got to address, on Saturday, Robert Mueller, 81 years young, passed. And Rob (33:23) Yes, he did. David (33:28) Truth social truth was it? Rob (33:30) Yeah, I think it was. David (33:31) that said Rob (33:32) I'm glad he's dead. He will never be able to attack another innocent American. David (33:38) some, I don't know, write, I'm glad he's don't know about Rob (33:40) Hoodspah. David (33:43) What I find interesting was that after the Mueller report had come out, Robbie, if I recall, the result of that was, at least what we were told, was that that's all folks, it's all good. And I think he even said it exonerated Trump said that. It exonerated him. Rob (33:59) He said that. David (34:03) find, about it is just that if he holds this level of animosity to bother going onto social media to say, I'm glad the guy's dead. What did the Mueller report actually say that wasn't redacted that we didn't see that pissed him off so much? Rob (34:21) I don't think it was the Mueller report. I think it was Mueller. was a honorable man not beholden to public opinion, not beholden to public support. He comported himself an honorable man even when he was being attacked. He kept his mouth shut. He didn't defend. didn't do a goddamn thing. Even though he had lived an honorable life to that point, he didn't have to do this job. He could have denied it. He was the FBI director. He served honorably. He did his job. had a Purple Heart from Vietnam in which he had gone to Princeton to our tens of listeners who maybe aren't read in on Mueller. David (34:55) Purple Heart from Vietnam, yeah. Rob (35:07) he graduated from Princeton, and then he volunteered for the Marine Corps to go to Vietnam. And he earned a Purple Heart in Vietnam. So didn't have bone spurs. He went, yeah, weird. He went David (35:17) Nothing wrong with those heels. I know, weird. Rob (35:23) he was in a certain socioeconomic class that he could have dodged the But he didn't, he didn't, he volunteered. went to he earned a Purple Heart. And again, for our tens of listeners, Purple Heart means that you were injured in combat. I don't think this has anything to do with the Mueller report. I think this has to do with the reflection that comes from looking at yourself through the lens of another human. And that other human was actually honorable, brave public servant who was looking for no... adulation. was not in the business of, self aggrandizement. That's where I think the hatred comes from because the Mueller report did not exonerate Trump by the way. And in fact, in, in congressional, hearings after the fact, even Mueller who was about a neutral as he could possibly be, even though it won him no fans. on the left, on the right. His stance was the Constitution says that a sitting president. the culmination of it. Here's all the data, here's all the evidence, you cannot charge a sitting president. They asked him directly, does this report exonerate the president? He said no. he didn't elaborate. He just said no. Now who actually has read the Fullmuler report? I have not. David (36:49) I know, I think that's the point is that it was heavily redacted. A lot of the evidence that was in the report was not available to the think Bill Barr read it. He one pager and said, it exonerates the president. I disagree with you that it was simply because Robert Mueller was a man who lived his life. Well, I think that if he said, Rob (36:56) Yeah. David (37:10) Robert Mueller's dead, I'm glad, and left it at that, then I would agree with you. But the sentence, he could no longer hurt innocent people, means that he felt like he was Robert Mueller that he is innocent, which he said 100 % of the time he's done anything that I'm innocent. so I think he's pissed. I think he was pissed that Robert Mueller produced a report that said what he did. and did not leave out anything that he did and that he was honest in his report. I think if he's mad about honesty, said he was honest about what was I think he was pissed about the report because he didn't go in and kiss his brain and tell him that he was amazing and wonderful and special and he didn't really do anything wrong when he did the things that were there. But we don't have access to it and we probably won't ever. Rob (37:59) Similar to how if he ever heard one of our podcasts, he'd hate us. thankfully he has not. He doesn't have the attention span, but. David (38:04) Yes. a long hour. sometimes 40 minutes. We use big words. Rob (38:10) ⁓ yeah, He creates his own his superpower. He's shameless. What I was struck by, honestly, my gut instinct on this was just a few months ago when Charlie Kirk died, assassinated. it became a national crime to talk about Charlie Kirk. And here we sit just a few months later in which another man dies and disparage this man. Whereas just a few months ago, disparaging the death of somebody was truly a crime. And in fact, I was in a position David (38:46) Well... Rob (38:47) position where I was actually engaged with an individual who got locked up in this, because he had posted something about, know, hey, it sucks that Charlie Kirk for his family, but you know, he said this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this. And, when the chickens come home to roost, This is the kind of thing that happens. You know, do I agree with that? as I said way back when Charlie Kirk was killed and we talked about it, no one deserves to die to speak their mind. No one. It's not a capital offense. In this nation, we should have freedom of speech, just like you and I are exerting right now as independent US citizens, right? Donald Trump, we are independent US citizens. We cannot be attacked for our opinions and thoughts. David (39:35) Well, I hate to point out and I'd hate to point out it wasn't just people who were disparaging Charlie Kirk. was people who were saying maybe very neutral things that just weren't they were being attacked, but that's, mean, that we spoke about before it. that was the right wing hashtag me too. It was just a way to stick it to, Rob (39:55) Yeah. It brings me back to something we've talked about, shamelessness. history paints a single superpower that Donald J. Trump has, it's shamelessness. He is shameless. There is no need in his world to have internal consistency through time. has no compunction about saying one thing, saying something completely different. The rest of us, % of human population, we feel compelled to be consistent. We feel like if we say X, then we have to live X and we have to say something consistent with X, which I think plays back into what you started with, which is 100 %? Well, because they said X and now they're ride or die. Donald J. Trump is never ride or die. David (40:50) Yeah. Rob (40:50) the ride goes a different direction, he's more than happy to hop on a different motorcycle and be someone else's bitch. David (40:57) you're absolutely right. mean, it's, it's ride. It's just ride and it's not jump on somebody else's. It's if somebody, it's just, you, you jump on mine and you go whichever way I'm going, whenever I'm going there, no matter how I'm going there, just be on board or you're dead to me. which I guess would be the die part. what's interesting about it is that it's not a personality trait. that is exclusive to him. But you will find that people who lack that internal consistency, or actually I would say they don't lack it, they just don't need it. They don't find a need to stick with any kind of internal consistency. interesting about it is that what's interesting about that is because I'm sure all tens of our listeners have actually met people like this in their life. Rob (41:28) rough to be internal and consistent. Mm-hmm. David (41:37) And what's fascinating to me is that they tend to come in, and it's not the person, it's not the person that lacks that, it's the way that they either really disarms somebody because that lack of consistency is so confusing to somebody who does have if you're trying to empathize with somebody who lacks that, it just doesn't click in your own mind. that they don't. And so wherever they go with things that they're saying, are consistent in your own and because it creates a great deal of anxiety in yourself when you aren't able to be consistent with your own words, it is unfathomable for some people to believe that what that person is saying is anything but the truth. it doesn't really click. What find interesting is either leads to somebody who finds that very charming and charismatic or incredibly off-putting. And it really doesn't seem to be either any other way, but when you have 100 % of the people who are saying, yes, I believe you, it's because they find it charming. Rob (42:35) Well, I... have often imagined what it would be like to be in the presence of our POTUS. And my speculation is that in the presence of our POTUS, when you are one-on-one with him, he I have no doubt. David (43:01) If you agree with him, if he senses that what you are wanting to hear is something that he's willing to say, I imagine he's incredibly charming. But if you disagree with him, I imagine he quite off-putting if you don't agree with what he's saying. Rob (43:16) Well, it depends if it's public or So a non-public exposure to him, I think he's charming and I think he's probably much more flexible is in public. And I think his power is that, David (43:20) Yes. Yes. Rob (43:35) And this happens in folks who have a narcissistic bend is that you're with me. because you're with me I'm so amazing, you must be amazing. And being made to feel amazing. I want everyone in our audience to think about those times in your life in which you're falling in love, an environment where you're being like ultra appreciated. How amazing that feels to be, I'm one of the best. am amazing. I am fantastic. I am smart. I am good. All the things. that we wanna be. And I have a sense that because he is so convinced of his own amazingness that those who he's with, it ends up being cast upon them. here's where it gets wonky is that when you are included in that, for most of us, we feel obligated to consistency beyond that. So the promises made at those moments in time up casting forward. And I speculate many of our politicians are stuck in this is that when they're by themselves being interviewed, they say one thing, then they come and have their audience with the king the psychological power that is exerted all of a sudden, the promise becomes to the king and because humans are humans, because most of us, and when I say most of us, I mean a vast majority of us, wanna be internally consistent, end up, making promises in that moment that they then feel compelled adhere to because they're not shameless. They're not shameless. they want to be honorable. Most humans want to be honorable at the level we can be. I mean, not everyone can be like, of the Round Table level honorable. I get that. I mean, that's the nature of being human. But we want to be honorable. And that's where he gets people. to diverge significantly before they're willing to diverge significantly. And that's where we all get stuck. David (45:48) think you just described the salesman part of it. You just need to get somebody to say yes. Just keep plugging away. I think it goes deeper than that with him, but ⁓ all. Rob (45:57) You really need this. You need this vacuum cleaner. You really need this vacuum cleaner. David (46:01) Yeah. And once somebody says, okay, they have a hard time turning around and saying, you know what? No, I don't need a vacuum Rob (46:08) an interesting story about vacuum cleaners. figure. David (46:12) bet this story really sucks. Rob (46:13) No, no, no, no, this, I think that this might be Donald Trump in a nutshell, but vacuum cleaner salesman shows up at the door David (46:20) Hit us. What fucking year? What era was this? Rob (46:26) Not long ago, not long ago. Yeah, I mean, we're talking within the last five years. Vacuum cleaner salesman, rainbow vacuum cleaner salesman. our tens of listeners, if you want to Google rainbow vacuum cleaners. they present themselves as friendly. David (46:29) Okay. Rob (46:44) and ingratiate themselves into your life and then hop in and they give you the demonstration, they do the things. Ultimately, even when you say no, there becomes a moral obligation to meet what they have invested. So if they have invested time in you, you feel like you need to invest time in them. You get to the point where you just can't say no. You just can't say the president... David (47:14) Why you have a really expensive vacuum, isn't it Rob? Rob (47:16) Well, I don't, but someone who to be close to me does. And I heard this story and I heard this story and I remember thinking, holy shit, that's Donald J. Trump. what happens. That's the power he has. Once ingratiated, once the sense that they have invested in you, it is incredibly human that if we go backwards in time in our environment, David (47:23) You Rob (47:45) If people invested in you, you invested in them. And there was a shared sense that that investment would pay off. in this environment, that's not the case. can get dropped and they often do. I mean, his allies get dropped fast and hard. In fact, mean, Kristi Noem should be the poster child for... What's the benefit of being an ally? Not much, not much. David (48:11) No, that gets, she's now the leader of shield. mean, she's basically Nick Fury. So, Rob (48:15) She's a fucking Marvel character now. Yeah. Good for her. David (48:18) Hey, that's, there could be worse things. All right. I think we have squeezed as much as we can out of this Hey, me Rob (48:24) Way more than I thought. know, honestly what it is is that we had two weeks where we haven't chatted like this and we just like each other. looks like Jessica Foster, Jennifer Foster. David (48:33) Yeah. Yes, yes, yeah, that's just everyone when they hear my voice to picture Jessica Foster because that's basically what I look like. Rob (48:43) Yeah, Jessica, attractive 24 year old looking woman. David (48:47) Yeah. That's right, I do. Robbie reminds me of a young Barbara Eden. Rob (48:54) I dream of genie, folks. Yep. David (48:55) That's right. Young, young, the young version. Rob (48:58) ridiculously specific. if Young was here, he would call you out on that. a very early exposure to I Dream a Genie is what that is. David (49:10) Yeah, thank you Nick and Knight. right, right, I have a prescription. anybody has. Rob (49:12) Mm-hmm. You and Gilligan. David (49:17) engaged in self love to a picture that Donald Trump was in next to standing next to nobody. Just do a quick Google search, you know, at least make sure that all the people in the in the picture are real. Otherwise, you're just stroking it to a lamp. Rob (49:21) That's low. stroke into the lamp. How do I top that? I don't. So I'm going to go serious. I'm going to say that my prescription is that we have to avoid being shameless. So if you take a stance, you have to hold that stance. And If you the dead is verboten in the German, which I think is then you can't later flip around and embrace and celebrate the death of someone. David (50:07) Seems fair. All right. Well, it was a long couple of weeks, but we are back. We'll keep trying to do this Thank you so much, long as we're allowed to, I think at some point we might get hauled off. Rob (50:14) long as we can. still looking for eyes to show up outside. I still think we're gonna get deported. David (50:24) I mean, being the young, attractive women that we are. All right. Thank you everybody for sticking around. Hit like, subscribe, share with your friends if you can. Let's keep that music. Now we're out.