The Department of Blame Management

David (00:00) Alright, hey, I'm David. I have twenty plus years in the military. I'm a board certified psychiatrist. And today I am enjoying bourbon. And I am excited, Robbie, for four reasons. One, the first is that my shrink the nation shrink responsibly tumbler has showed up. And that just delights me this one's exciting because they look good these tumblers are actually really nicely printed so this one worked out beautifully I really like it That's reason one I'm really excited. The next three reasons, Robbie, is that we had discussed before that maybe we should try more than one bourbon just to kind of see how it feels. just to see how just the tip, just to feel how it feels. Rob (00:42) Just a tip, just to see how it feels. Just for a second. David (00:45) so I brought three. I'm gonna sample three throughout the show. I've got Larceny Smallbatch, which is weeded. ⁓ I've got basil Haydens. Nothing really special about it other than it's basil Haydn. Rob (00:48) Okay. Okay. So weed and bourbon, yes. Mm-hmm. ⁓ it's a it's a solid rye. I don't know if it's worth the money, but it's a decent bourbon. David (01:04) Yeah, well I got about a finger left of this one, so we're gonna give it a shot a little bit later. And then tried and true old crow in a fancy bottle. That one I'm gonna save for last because I have a feeling I'm not gonna care as much by the time I get there. And depending on what we're talking about, it might be worth it. Rob (01:08) Okay, just guzzle it. Yeah, I concur. I think it's smart. That's that's strategy right there, folks. Yeah. Hey everyone. this is Rob. bunch of years doing military stuff, bunch of years doing psychiatry. I, because this is an actual evening time, I am also enjoying a snifter of bourbon. I have the Evan Williams bottled in Bond version. and then for our listeners, if you want to know what bottled and bond means, it doesn't necessarily mean better. however, it does mean that it was made in one distilling season, aged at least four years and goes in the bottle at 100 proof, so 50% ABB. ⁓ David (02:01) Fantastic. Well and I've and I've heard nothing but good things about that one, so I'll track it down at some point and Rob (02:05) Yeah. It's also cheap. It's cheap. It's like twenty two bucks for a for a fifth, which is just a hair more expensive than what regular Evan Williams is. David (02:15) I think I got like a small plastic bottle of Evan Williams a few weeks ago for like ten a ten spot or something, and know, I got pretty lit. it did its job, so I'll take it. Rob (02:20) Yeah, I remember. Yeah. You did. You did. Yeah, and then you had to go do something after, I believe. I I wondered how that went down. David (02:32) it was all sightseeing stuff. It was great, actually. I I highly recommend a little day drinking before ya go off do any adulting. that doesn't require actual, you know, work or credentials, which it didn't. No, there's no driving. It was all walk it was walking. was in a very friendly city with Rob (02:44) Or driving or right. David (02:52) Lots of public transportation, so it was it was pretty great. Yeah. All right. this was an odd week, there's normal political weeks, and then there's weeks where even a reflecting pool somehow has an enemy list. And as we were, trying to figure out what the hell are we going to talk about this week, 19 new things would pop up in the news that were really worth talking about, but it ultimately all kind of came down to this one theme. of blame and grievance. And so I thought, you know, let's talk about it. try to find some angles to have discussion that aren't just centered on our wonderful commander in chief, Donald Jeremiah, Jehoshaphat Trump. Figured that'd probably be little bit more interesting than picking on the old man again. Now we'll pick on him a little bit. A little bit. Just a little bit. But you know, let's talk about something that is adjacent. So we have grievance. Now, question I have for you what is psychologically relieving about having Rob (03:34) Agreed. David (03:47) One explanation for everything that hurts. Rob (03:50) because we don't sit well with ambiguity. ambiguity is chaotic, it's difficult to understand, it's not clean and it is so much more appealing to the human psyche to have a singular thing to blame, particularly if that thing has a face. we really like blaming things with a face and it cuts through the the ambiguity and brings some comfort. David (04:16) All right, well show's over. Thanks, Robbie. That was it. You really solved our problems today. Rob (04:18) Yeah. All right. Take care, folks. Take care. David (04:22) No, so last week so last week we were talking about incels and the overarching theme of the incel is I don't know that it's loneliness per se. there are a lot of men out there who are lonely they and they don't all become incels. it goes deeper than that. Rob (04:33) Absolutely. David (04:37) once it becomes this ideology, then it really starts to get heavily into grievance and victimhood, right? So let's discuss. Rob (04:45) Well, you know, and we deal with that element of this last week. we probably should have, but yeah, I mean the reality is is that loneliness is at least based everything I'm reading, is epidemic level. there's a lot of lonely people, a lot of lonely men out there. They don't all become incels. The the whole incel ideology doesn't appeal to them en masse. it's a specific subgroup of this these men. we could debate what personality structures lead to that. David (05:15) I do because the incel community is so heavily based online, they don't seem to be having a ton of meetups, to dip your feet into it. it's not something that's happening with other people physically present. do you think it would be more appealing to somebody? If they were just exposed to it more? Who was also lonely? 'Cause it does seem like loneliness needs to be a piece of the equation. you're not a happily married person who's going down the incel rabbit hole, know? Rob (05:44) Probably not. yeah, I think it's loneliness plus powerlessness. in the powerlessness piece is the more important piece, at least from my viewpoints, that they're lonely and they feel powerless to fix it, to intervene. we talked about the sort of the ideology, which is basically your birthright, your sexual birthright was stolen because of you know a bad rule of the genetic dice at birth. the ideology offers I guess you know three things to these individuals. it gives them an explanation for their suffering. it gives them a villain who's responsible for it. it also gives them permission to stop examining their own agency in the process. and I think the powerlessness piece is what really sells it at the end, that if I am powerless and I can do nothing, then I either have to sit with a hopeless feeling or I find a villain. then I'm no longer really responsible. I no longer have agency. Agency was stolen from me because of, you know, the genetic lotto. apparently they've never gone to a county fair because see a lot of losers in the genetic lotto who are walking around holding hands. David (06:56) With the whole slew of children tagging behind them. Rob (07:00) Absolutely. David (07:01) Yeah. then at that point it it morphs into something more than just this is my understanding of my situation, it becomes an identity. Like this is I am. Rob (07:11) Yeah, I mean I assume, I don't know. I've never adopted the ideology. it does seem that these groups sort of thrive on the identity that I am a member of group and this is why. then it's embraced and then they sort of play off one another with their, you know, misogyny and hatred and toxic discussions. David (07:31) the identity I guess comes from belonging to that community. The thing that they're ultimately missing is a sense of belonging to something and this is that piece, but it in order to belong to something, you need to adopt the identity within. So it's not just that, well I I agree with them. It's that I am them. I'm one of them. a powerful tool, isn't it? Rob (07:54) sure. And I don't think it actually starts with hatred. I think it starts with just permission. it's permission to give up agency, to not be responsible, it's permission not to do the hard work of self improvement, it's permission to not be self reflective, and identify, what's getting in the way of your love life other than you know the genetic lotto. maybe you have the personality of a porcupine. I don't know. but if you're not pondering it, if you're given permission to say I have no agency, then the the hatred flows thereafter. and I think it is probably amplified thereafter because as soon as they sort of embrace the powerlessness, embrace the fact that they they really have no agency, it's a short trip to taking that hopelessness and making it hatred. Hatred's an easier, I mean, you you know this clinically. anger is sad's bodyguard. so when you're with a patient and you're engaged in psychotherapy and they end up expressing anger, anger is just a defensive experience. really, underneath that is something else. So anytime a patient expresses anger or you elicit anger. there's pay dirt there if you dig, if you question and if you try to get to the bottom. And honestly, any time that I've intervened in that way, you know, at its core is usually some sense of sadness or hopelessness or powerlessness that ends up being expressed as anger. It feels better. It feels so much better to be angry 'cause it's an active emotion. it's a powerful emotion. And the alternatives are difficult to sit with. It's easier to be angry than to be sad. David (09:31) Well, it it it's easier you. sadness is so internally focused, Not just what's happened to me, but that helplessness that can come with sadness. Whereas anger a blame. It's that externalization of that emotion. yeah, something happened to me, but it's not my fault, it's yours. Whereas with just sadness, it's I have to think about my function within it. This thing happened to me and how is it affecting me versus this thing happened to me, but it's your fault and you're the bad guy. And I had no choice. Rob (10:06) Well, the bigger picture that we're talking about, 'cause I think beat incels to death as a topic, last week to this week, is really scapegoat button. incels are easy to identify 'cause scapegoated women in general. but the overall bigger picture is honestly, I don't know if it's more common now or I'm more aware of it now, or we just are at in history where our political leaders are more apt to not call on our better angels. I think we've seen in the last decade that you get more immediate results by whispering to the demons than the better angels. And historically most presidents try to call on our better angels for the most part. but this tendency to scapegoat seems to be more common now. I can't recall it being as prevalent as it currently is, the incels are just one example. David (10:59) I think that does evolve into a much bigger discussion because, like you said, they're an easier target because they're so overt about it. I don't know that it's new. I mean it's not new and I I don't even know I I I don't even know that it's more common. Rob (11:09) God no. Yeah. ⁓ we had a whole war about it. You know, was called World War Two. There was a very obvious scapegoated population in Germany. David (11:14) Yeah. we've had lots of wars based off of scapegoating. I think that's probably the most of like overt version of that, but humanity is always utilized scapegoating. what colors this in a different way now is that you almost feel like because of the access to information that we have, because of the history that we've seen and that we know about circa to 1945, the atrocities that occurred as being so distasteful to do that Maybe it was tamped down a little bit over those last eighty years. But the reality is I don't think it's gone anywhere. just think from the way that we look at our world view is that maybe we thought we were as a species above it now because we have so much access to information and it's so obvious how ridiculous scapegoating is. and yet here it is, right in front of us. But did it really go anywhere? Rob (12:14) Well, it's always existed and likely will always exist. I think the difference is is that through much of at least modern history, World War Two to the present, our politicians had shame. when you have shame, in a leadership position, you have a role to play. And part of that role is not to publicly proclaim scapegoat. In fact, most presidents will at least pay homage to the stance that I am the president of all Americans. I am the president of folks who voted for me and folks who didn't vote for me. I am the president of the group that I belong to and the groups that I don't belong to. I lead the nation. And something has shifted, certainly, in that less shame and the definition of being a leader has loosened. considerably. and scapegoating in and itself, it offers a sort of an emotional compression, if you will. so it turns systems into characters. it takes complexity and makes it accusation, it takes uncertainty and makes it certain. it takes helplessness and it turns it into righteous anger. so we can see why it's appealing psychologically. there's no doubt that it plays a role in basically making us more comfortable when we're faced with complex systems, complex situations, uncertainty, and generally helpless. I mean you and I, what one of the reasons we started this podcast is because of a general sense helplessness. So if we can't do anything about it. What we decided is, well, at least we're gonna try to understand it. and we've, you know, given it the old college try, I don't know if we've cracked any codes thus far. we'll keep trying. David (13:55) trying to think back when did scapegoating become more prevalent again? I want to frame it as it has become politically safer to talk about it. to use it as a mechanism for action. and I I was trying to do a little rewind in my head to figure out, okay, well, when did that happen? And I think naturally we're we're like, well, Donald Trump, well, was it Donald Trump? to nine eleven, and how many laws did we implement as a country because nine eleven? And at that point I mean, we justified a twenty year war because of scapegoating. it's become I think more overt now. I think the words that are being are much more like they were in the nineteen thirties, we'll say really. Did it actually go away or was it just disguised as something nicer and easier accept? Rob (14:42) you know, there may have been some scapegoating, but I I do also recall George Bush making it clear that this is not a war against Is Islam. so we didn't necessarily scapegoat Group, we specifically ended up invading a country that had been supporting the organization that attacked us. And then we, you know, had to take care of some old family business of George Bush spent way more energy and effort and just by sheer numbers of soldiers. in Iraq and the the alternative, but there was caution not to overtly scapegoat. I will admit that the public perception was a was there was a scapegoating element, but our leaders contained it. And they just don't contain it anymore. But that kind of started also with the Tea Party. it seems to me at least that the Tea was all about scapegoating. David (15:18) Right. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Rob (15:35) that took on some dark overtones they had their moment in the sun and they became somewhat politically powerful for a bit. But it was dark and it certainly was into the crystal ball of the future, it was an indication of what was to come. It has not gotten better, it has in many ways gotten worse, and the worst part Is currently have a set of leaders that seem to be very comfortable with not just scapegoating, but embracing it publicly, saying the quiet part out loud. I would say politicians have done this forever, but they just couldn't say quiet part out loud. It worked in its circles behind the scenes. They had other doing the scapegoating for them. They had to say the right things, and no longer is that seemingly We don't have to say the right things anymore. You don't have to have the image of leadership that has been set in stone since World War Two What, you know, an American president is supposed to behave like, say things like what they're supposed to do, that mold's been completely shattered. David (16:38) that's what I getting at, is that it's not that scapegoating hasn't occurred. It's just that the leadership has been reluctant to use it, but would still use it. because it's a powerful emotional driver, isn't it? us versus them. It's they're the reason Rob (16:53) Absolutely. David (16:54) that you're having the problems that you're having because the uncomfortable question is, what's my role? what's my responsibility in my life in this world? And so much easier. so I guess the question is is the scapegoat always hated or are they sometimes needed? that's the interesting thing there you have the scapegoat and it's a powerful driver on a population level. But the people who are using that as their driving force need They need the out group. because it helps to unify a population, doesn't it? Rob (17:25) But they need the Owl group or they need a leader that can explain ambiguity. So a villain is easier to yell at than a supply chain. supply chains are complex and the explanation for say prices is a very complicated multi-step sort of thing. And it's easier to just give it a face, blame it on Whoever, insert group, immigrants, Jews, whoever you want to blame, the world's problems on. ambiguity creates discomfort and scapegoating discharges that discomfort. so do we need them? I you know, I don't know. lazy to me. a lazy way to be a leader. it has diminishing returns. I don't think in the long run, in the scope of history, scapegoating has ever worked out That well. David (18:13) No, do we collectively need scapegoats? No. I don't know that anybody needs a scapegoat. but do bad leaders or people who struggle to explain nuance, do they need scapegoats? And I think the answer is Rob (18:28) Yes. David (18:28) No, well, they need No. Do they like them? Yes. it gives them temporary control in a world of which they lack the ability to function as a it gives them a path. And so you're right. it can work. Rob (18:31) Make it it makes it easier. David (18:42) for short periods of time. and unfortunately in our world, a short period of time can be decades. when you look at a country that's two hundred and fifty years old and still one of the youngest countries, that's a has huge ramifications. But ultimately the people who use the scapegoats get found out. to be the frauds. I it's hard to villainize entire populations of people, when it turns out they're just fucking people, Rob (19:04) the except for the Dutch. I hate two things people who are intolerant of other people and the damn dirty Dutch. David (19:10) small hands smell of cabbage ⁓ I don't know if that was the same group I and I think that's the those are Carnies yeah Carnies well they do cause problems damn carnies probably not listening to us anyway but but but I Rob (19:10) was just the Dutch? And they smelled cabbage. No, those were Carnies. No, I don't think so. David (19:24) I don't wanna be a hypocrite could we argue that we often will sit here and fault Donald Trump for all of the terrible, terrible things that are occurring, when maybe the reality is a lot more nuanced than Rob (19:36) I think it is. I do. I I don't think actually we can lay blame. he didn't create the concept. may have mastered it, but you know, that was actually my next question to you. have there always been scapegoats? Yes. does the current environment, social media environment, internet environment, Reddit forums, all the things, does it make it mm potentially easier for escapegoats to take hold. David (20:00) I think so, yes. we often talk about just the ease of access to information into populations. but I don't know that that by itself is the reason, it's a piece of it, your access to a niche group is gonna be much more than it typically is. But that's been around for long time. the ability to jump onto AOL and have conversations and chatrooms with people who only want to talk about the shit you want to talk about. Well, that's been around since the internet's been around, that's not new. But the difference now is that we're being shown things that we're gonna click on, That's the algorithm, big nebulous, scary algorithm that exists within social media platforms, which is just gonna show you the stuff that is similar to the stuff that you like to see similar enough that. The assumption is that you'll probably also like this thing. Which at its face value pretty innocent. Rob, I know that you like building shit. if I'm like, hey, look, I saw this video of some guy building some piece of furniture, I bet Rob would like it. And I send it to Rob and he gives me a thumbs up on it. I'm more likely to send him more stuff like that. and then maybe I'll branch off men without shirts building stuff. And maybe Rob likes that, you know? And so Rob (21:15) Maybe. David (21:16) this is going off on a weird tangent. And anyway, is yeah. so the algorithm is showing you the things that you're likely to click Rob (21:18) slightly. Well it It's optimized for engagement and it just so happens that outrage performs extremely well. these algorithms they have no moral character. they could care less. they have no interest in blaming people and it what all they care about is giving you the shit that you click on. mechanism's really simple. You you get angry, you post. David (21:33) They they are not a thing. Yeah. Rob (21:43) you get likes, you feel validated, your group rewards you the algorithm learns you're activated, then it serves you more activating material. that's just how it works. David (21:53) but to be clear, I algorithm isn't looking at the tone, not a defense of the algorithm, it's just an understanding of it. The algorithm is not a person, it's not a thing. The algorithm is code. The algorithm takes the back end of a video, of a song, of whatever and The things that perform well that have search engine optimization, SEO, meta tags, they're tags that say what about this thing is this thing? So if it's a video of a guy building a piece of furniture, it will say, guy building furniture, furniture, building. construction, whatever. It'll give you a whole list. And the things that match to you that you are more likely to watch, more likely to click yes, I like it, subscribe, if it's just a I like it, okay, great. That's you get a point or whatever. If you say This guy's building this shit all completely wrong. He's an idiot. you're gonna get more points because you spent more time doing it. And then somebody replies back, No, you're a fucking idiot because he totally built it right. and then you're gonna be like, No, you're a fucking and that engagement tells the algorithm that you're more likely to engage, interact with this thing. Why? Because somewhere else on this page, there's an for something. And the more time you're on the page, the more advertisement time is it in front of your eyes. It's just it's a tension economy. sometimes I want to think about it as being this malicious and that's exactly it, right? Like we say, well, it's the algorithm's fault. Rob (23:19) Stop scapegoating, David. David (23:23) Well no, the algorithm is gonna be tuned to show us the things that we are likely to respond to. and that's gonna be based off of what you're responding to, what you're saying, what you're telling it you like by looking at it. and is it the algorithm or you? Rob (23:37) Well, it is us, but never in human history has something been optimized in such a way to make us keep pushing the shiny red rage button. David (23:46) No, that's not true. is casino psychology. This is in human is what the Rob (23:50) No no When else in history before twenty and thirteen when we all started having phones in our pocket and we could get on social media any time we want and spend all of our time on it and these algorithms became more and more capable of keeping our attention. Where else in history has there ever been more access to the shiny red rage button ever? David (24:12) that's what's new, it's not the algorithm and it's not necessarily even the tuning of the algorithm. our access to it the internet has allowed and by population the vast majority of the world access to these things. but I think what's important for us to realize And that's as psychiatrists as people is that this is not new. off we've known that media, television, radio, Roger Ailes was a fucking Rob (24:33) rage? No. Yellow journalism back in David (24:39) Well, Roger Ayles was a genius when it came to learning how to just create sound bites that drew people in. and so this isn't new. This is just the access to it is new. even just the psychology behind this is just slot machine behavior. the algorithm now, you look at the way that your phone works with Facebook or Instagram or whatever the hell else, you're just Flipping through until you get a dopamine hit. And when you get the dopamine hit, you're more likely to stay. TikTok got really fucking good because they decided that the better way to feed you was to go on to a very granularized scale all the different components of the video, to then say, okay, this person really really likes this particular thing, this particular aspect of this video, so it feeds you more of it. It just turns out that we as humans love to be pissed off. fucking love Rob (25:31) moral outrage always feels clean. it disguises primitive emotion as a virtue. and that's why it's so addictive. rage gets to wear a little black judge's robe make us feel superior. David (25:44) The algorithm doesn't fucking care about you. It's a program. It's saying there is a whatever percentage chance that you're going to click and watch this thing. And because it doesn't cost anything to test that out a thousand times over on every single person who looks at it because they're doing it themselves, they can feed you whatever it is that you want to be fed. that's the meta aspect of this conversation is that it's really fucking uncomfortable, Robbie, to think about the fact that the reason that people Are stuck in these loops with these algorithms is because of them, not the algorithm. As much as I want to blame the algorithm, it's not the algorithm's fault. We're we could scapegoat all you have agency. And yet if you're the one who's logging into Facebook, is sitting on the can swiping through for what turns out to be 45 minutes until your legs go nuts. Rob (26:21) Of course. Hey, hey, to our tens of us listeners, it is a bad, bad habit to get on social media when you're sitting on the can. It's bad for your pelvic muscles. just bad. Everyone should stop that. Do your business, get up, go away. David (26:49) I implemented a no fooping policy in our house, which is no phone pooping. You go into that bathroom, You want to read something, you go eighties style, you pick up a bottle of shampoo like a goddamn American and you read those ingredients seven times. Rob (27:00) Right. You're hell you're hell of a dad. Hell of a dad. so let let right Pristine. Yeah, pristine. David (27:03) till you know that yeah. That's right. when my children's public floors are are pristine, in their eighties, they're gonna thank me for no fooping. Rob (27:14) So let's take a pause. you finished off your first glass, which was David (27:18) I started with the Larceny small batch weeded I have moved on to Basil Haydn's at this point. Rob (27:21) Okay. All right. Ba basil Hayden. So so with your first taste of basil, what what's your take on it? Comparative. Spicier, right? David (27:31) I was thinking this 'cause sipping on for a minute or two now. I don't like it as much. Actually. I do. No, I do prefer weeded. it has a Rob (27:36) You weeded, I know you do. You've always liked weeded. There's a cream for that. David (27:42) has a definitely is different. the quality of it, it's fine. it's drinkable. it's a very good bourbon. Rob (27:42) I'll just leave it there. David (27:49) it definitely has a rye bourbon taste to it. And it's just not as pleasing as a weeded. couldn't tell ya. Rob (27:52) Yeah, and for So I I'm always hesitant to describe any alcohol as smooth because it's it's the lazy man's way of describing it. but will say in comparison a weeded versus a rye, the rye just has a little more of a kick. It's spicier. it really does go down a little different, it has a a little bit of a catch. Whereas the the weeded the weeded actually goes down a little smoother. It it doesn't have that spiciness to it. David (28:14) Yeah. Rob (28:19) I do prefer ryes, overweeded. But lars good good burden. Actually you turned me on to it years ago. Years and years ago. David (28:25) You no Larseny is fantastic. Yeah, Larseny is fantastic. I think you make everything harder. Like you just can't, maybe this just goes into your psychology, but like you just can't accept something that's just nicer and easier. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean I I think that describes you really, really well. And I there's a reason I think you prefer a rye to a weeded because it's just Rob (28:37) Doesn't hurt a little bit. If it doesn't hurt a little bit, you haven't you haven't earned it. You haven't earned it. Yeah. Probably. David (28:50) just there just that extra piece of like why, why? completely unnecessary. just yeah, and you're like, I just can't yeah. It really is, it really Rob (28:50) It's uncomfortable. Well, It's part it's part of my charm. Hey, you know. all right. got a comparison between a decent weeded bourbon and a decent rye bourbon. And next you are going to try a a not decent David (29:12) Once once I finish this off, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna go lay down behind a dumpster, is what I'm gonna do and Rob (29:18) A bourbon best drink in an alley behind a dumpster. absolutely. That that's what we're gonna close on after your taste buds have been numbed up a little bit, so it it really doesn't catch you. all right, here's here's a here's a shift. So we we killed the algorithm and and I concur with you that the algorithm isn't to blame. What's to blame is the fact that we as humans like to be righteously indignant and angry. David (29:28) Yeah. It'll Rob (29:42) Here's a question for you. And this is something that gets me all the time about the current administration or current political leaders. They are in power. They have power. Why do they keep presenting themselves as powerless? And I'll give you an example. past week has been kind of a whirlwind. There's been so many things. I mean, every week is, right? it's the modern world, I guess. it's trying to follow the ups and downs and the vicissitudes of this administration. it's just a gift that keeps on giving The reflected pool in Washington, DC. the saga just continues. So, you know, for our tens of listeners, some weeks ago we actually made jokes about this. We talked about it that there was a no-bid contract for like fourteen point five million dollars to resurface the reflective pool. And we made some jokes about, you know, if you turn it is this is it still gonna be reflective, all that. And then within like three days after they refilled it, two things happened. One, it was filled with algae, which my understanding is is that's not a new phenomenon for that reflective pool that you know, this is water that's pulled in from the Potomac and hot summers, stagnant water, algae bloom. David (30:56) If you've ever been to Washington D C in the summertime, it's fucking miserable at times. I mean I I'm okay with heat, but Washington D C at times is just awful. Rob (30:56) s Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's it's unit. The humidity's awful. so that happened. But the the funnier thing though is like the the paint also started to peel, which really, I got a guy. I and I I'll I'll tell you, I don't know if I've ever hired a guy that someone like I got a guy and I've hired him and that I actually was pleased with their work. you know, if you're getting a deal You're probably not getting the quality. But so now the the paint's peeling off. And since that time, Donald Trump, who made such a big deal out of resurfacing this fucking reflective pool, has been claiming without evidence that a villain sabotaged his reflective pool, that somebody climbed. Into the reflective pool and cut a gash 250 feet the center of this reflective pool. And this is, you know, maybe one of the most photographed and surveillance camera to place on earth. I don't know how anyone would get away with this, but why does he need a is arguably one of the most powerful men in the entire world. He has all the leaders of power at his fingertips. Why is someone who both wants to come off as being utterly powerful repetitively, also has to scapegoat and blame and say he's powerless? David (32:27) I think the simple answer might be the right answer. I don't But the simple answer is he doesn't want to appear to be incompetent in the one thing that he believes himself to be incredibly competent, which is something. Rob (32:40) Interior design. David (32:42) I think that's the easy answer. And and maybe maybe it's the right one. Maybe. But there's a lot that goes into this. So one, Rob (32:47) So so sab sabotage protects his competency. David (32:52) in theory. now you have to overlook the fact that he could somehow redo the pool, but he's not strong enough or confident enough to protect it from sabotage. but it it gives like a faceless villain to look at. That's one and I think that's maybe that's the right one. I don't want to accuse the man of playing four D chess because I don't know that he can play chess. I'm not sure he could win at a game of checkers at this point. He is eighty years old. but there's more that into this. been multiple excuses. You know, well, this was just the algae that was in the lines, this was expected, this was gonna happen, and it'll be gone in a couple of days. Well, it hasn't been gone. So now it's somebody has put something in the water to make the algae bloom even more and these are some sick fucking demented people who r really hate our country. Rob (33:44) Demented. Demented. It's calling the kettle black right there. David (33:49) but it's also they put something in the water that caused the peeling to occur. a chemical, there's a chemical out there that somebody walked by and sprinkled a handful of some chemical. because it's a huge fucking pool, it's not a small pool. it is a shallow pool. Rob (33:56) Pastic chemicals. David (34:10) But it's it took days to refill, Rob (34:13) What two feet, right? Two feet deep. David (34:15) It's not particularly It's been made shallower over the years. Like it was it was deeper before. probably so that people can't fucking drown themselves in so they wouldn't try to swim it. some of these things just so asinine. So somebody somebody, Dumped enough of a chemical into the reflecting pool that is being filtered kind of constantly that simultaneously algae to bloom and ate hundred-year sealant that they put in, right? Like this thing was gonna be fixed for a hundred years. that's how good this paint slash sealant is. That for the next hundred years it was gonna keep things going, but also could easily be peeled up by a chemical that it only needs to be used in such a quantity that somebody could theoretically walk by without a truck and have it peel up, but also cause more algae to bloom. the sealer is Rob (35:05) Right. It's so caustic that it peels the sealer but it doesn't kill algae. David (35:09) Doesn't kill algae. But also that somebody used a sharp knife to cut 250 feet into this sealer. nobody saw them do it. Robbie. this sealer is so good that it's gonna keep this thing looking pristine for the next hundred years, unless some guy with a knife taps Rob (35:19) Freaking ninjas. Ninjas. David (35:29) No, I mean, but okay, so I've never built a pool. I've never sealed a pool. I've never worked for a pool company. at best I'm really, really good at skimming the surface of the pool before my kids go into a pool. Like I'm great at getting leaves off. Top. So I don't know how realistic it would be for any of those scenarios. and again, the simple answer is he needs to point his finger at somebody so he can continue to feel competent in the one thing that he feels competent in. And it doesn't seem like maybe is. But the other piece, the other side is We're talking about a fucking pool now. Robbie, we've lost a war with a memorandum of Rob (36:05) Yeah. I know. A third world power. beat us. David (36:09) Yeah, I mean we're in the middle of this ceasefire that every day is broken. the economy yeah. Rob (36:15) Well, we went from demanding unconditional surrender to actually giving them our unconditional surrender. David (36:23) Yeah. Well in money lots of money. We gave them I w Rob (36:26) I mean we're just like please work with us. We'll we'll give you anything. Just work with us. Just just open the horn straight. Just open the straight. Just open the straight. Just open the straight. Please let us stop bombing you. Please. Please. ain't working. David (36:31) Whatever whatever you want. And and the truth is I think that's probably the more complex answer would be it's just a distraction from everything else. I just don't know that he goes that deep. I think the more realistic reason is that It's really fucking uncomfortable for Donald Trump to think about everything else. Because being the president is a taxing job. to be the most powerful leader of the most powerful country in the free world, and to have your decisions impact so many people globally, And to do a bad job at it when you don't know how to do it right, that's a really uncomfortable thing to think about. And so you said it last week, and I agree with you. that he's falling back on the thing that he thinks he's good at. he's uncomfortable. The two things that he thinks that he's good at, and yes. two weeks ago, sorry. I don't know, you fucking talk so much. Yeah. But he but no, but the two things developing and no, not no, it was it was developing and it was promoting, right? It was developing stuff. Rob (37:26) Well, no, it was two weeks ago that I we were talking about the Emperor going I know, I know. I got a lot to say. interior decoration. Gilding shit. David (37:43) And it's promoting stuff. The interior design, that's a that's a hobby. ⁓ that's that's a fun that's a that's a fun thing. Rob (37:46) It's a hobby. It's just, you know. What can we cover in gold? That's that's you know, what what what things David (37:51) Yeah. A anything, anything, except they haven't figured out a gold paint or whatever the no, I would argue that he's good at other things and those are not two things that he's good at, but it seems as though he believes that he is good at developing stuff and promoting stuff. and the pool was a pet project of his Rob (37:56) Right. David (38:09) that he could do both. And there really wasn't much to it. The problem is it's not working out the way that he really wants and that's uncomfortable. but what's more uncomfortable is thinking about the other stuff that's not working out well for him. and so he's blaming other things. What is interesting though apparently is that he has the time to go and inspect the pool. Rob (38:24) yeah. Well and and you know David (38:28) Why is why is the President of the United States inspecting the fucking reflecting pool? I mean it's not like there's a war going on or anything. He's not that much to do. Rob (38:34) Well you know, he's he's got time to kill. no, what what is fascinating and we're talking about the pool, but th this extends beyond that. he came into this saying I alone I alone can save you. And then he kind of immediately said, But they won't let me. it's the martyrdom and I'm sure you've worked for leaders that actually adopted the martyrdom of leadership. it's so hard. I have to make big decisions and they affect people. it's a terrible leadership style, no doubt. But so he comes in and says, I alone, I alone can save you. but now it's I alone can save you, but They won't let me. And it creates this perfect loyalty trap. if the leader succeeds, he's strong. If he fails, the enemies are stronger than we thought they were. So your loyalty to me must get stronger. It's a closed emotional loop. Psychologically, it's a loop that really protects him from incompetence. It protects any leader from incompetence. and really they never have to get anything done because you know it's always the deep state or you know, inserts whatever scapegoat you want to throw in there. annoying hell. David (39:46) one thing that's my wheel spinning beyond the larceny and the Basil Hayden is that this doesn't just function for the leader. It functions for the followers as well. Yeah. Rob (39:57) They never have to judge. David (39:59) It gives them such a clean out when things aren't working the way that they want. it's not that I'm supporting somebody who can't do it. It's that this evil entity is preventing that success. it brings people down these rabbit holes. it creates more anger, it creates more tension, it creates more distrust. And when you have this group that's already doesn't trust systems. why did Donald Trump get elected in the first place? It don't know that there's a simple answer to that. We don't have to go too deep, but one of the reasons was a deep distrust of institutions. Him being outside candidate who also didn't trust institutions. he was going to be the way to defeat the institutions. And in some ways he i it's not wrong. It's just always fascinating when somebody wants to run the institutions Rob (40:51) the outsider becomes the insider, start to lose something and the only way that they can continue to be the outsider is if they can identify an enemy from within that is preventing them from achieving what they want. and this kind of brings us back, I mean we've been going in circles on this, but grievance can point toward repair or it become a home. for the Okra. David (41:14) at old crow now. Rob (41:15) We're at Old Crow, taste it. David (41:17) I can't even fucking smell that's that's not a good sign. Rob (41:18) Okay. David (41:21) compared to the other two, it it has a I'm gonna be as nice as I can here. It tastes like what I assume Rob (41:23) Uh-huh. David (41:29) Dirty dishwater tastes like. Rob (41:31) That is kind. That you you you you really did spare the old crow distillery. David (41:35) That soaked that somebody soaked their feet in as I drink this, I imagine an elderly woman from the old country, whatever that is for you, is washing the under garments. Rob (41:38) Old socks and dirty underwear. David (41:49) of her family in a sink. And as she's straining it, the water, somebody has caught it in a bottle and then let that age for about three years. That's what Rob (41:59) It and mixed in some isopropyl alcohol. David (42:03) That's what this tastes like compared to. like the experiment. but next time old crows first. Rob (42:07) You know, speaking of so to our tens of listeners, you should never drink isopropyl alcohol. however, something that I I and I I assume this is COVID related, but you can actually buy ethyl alcohol in little bottles that are you know, like the isopropyl alcohol like for for wound disinfectants or whatever. you can buy ethyl alcohol now. And that never existed before COVID and all those distilleries that weren't selling their booze started doing hand sanitizer with their, you know, one ninety proof ethyl alcohol. all let's circle back this episode home. David (42:40) As I as I sip on Mama's dishwater here. Rob (42:44) Yeah. so legitimate grievance asks what happened and what can we repair? But when grievance becomes an identity, it says who did this to us and who can we punish? The pathology is when grievance becomes identity preserving, socially rewarding and And that's kind of where we're at now. this is a perpetual grievance economy, Nothing's getting fixed. We're just finding new people to blame, new people to be angry at, and kind of kicking the can down the road, because taking the risk to fix something means that you might reveal yourself as incompetent. And It's not the best place to be for a nation, for a government, or for a democracy. David (43:29) excuse me. Rob (43:29) should leave that David (43:30) I'm allergic to it. Something mammals, feet, whatever she puts in the Rob (43:34) I'm allergic to the sweat in mammal's undergarments. David (43:37) it occurred to me that one of the things that I think we also struggle with you and I suppose are or people who are dealing people who've followed the algorithm down these rabbit holes is that it's so difficult for them to leave all that behind. I don't want to excuse behavior because I can't excuse behavior. there is a level of choice that everyone has far as what they expose themselves to. But at some point we also have to understand that it's kind of expected. it's well within normal to have an alteration in your belief system and your reality, what you understand to be when all you're giving yourself access to is a certain perspective, it's normal. maybe the most important thing that we can take away from this entire conversation is that why are scapegoats why have they been around forever? Why are they so commonly used? because it works. It works really fucking well. And so when you're dealing with somebody who's drinking that Kool-Aid, and there's some discussion as to whether Jim Jones served Kool-Aid or Flavor Aid. and as it turns out, Robbie, I well, I think they have both, to be honest. I don't think either one wants to claim it, although it seems like free advertisement to me. Rob (44:40) Who knows? Didn't matter. David (44:48) It was the cyanide that killed them. not the f not the But when you're dealing with somebody who's drinking the Kool-Aid like that, common thing you'll see from people who have left. one is that Rob (44:51) True, true, David (45:00) They typically have made a misstep within that system and then have become the enemy within. it's not so much that they're like, Well, I don't believe this shit anymore. It's that they fucked up a little bit within the high control group. they fucked up and then all of a sudden they're on the outs and then they leave. And then they have a problem with the group. it's really important for all of us to understand it's so normal and expected for somebody who starts to get involved that we shouldn't be surprised. I actually almost go back to dialectical behavioral therapy. this idea that we expected you to behave like this, because so many people do when they're doing this. So y you voted for Donald Trump. you were full blown MAGA. Of course you believe that immigrants were causing all of your problems because that's the natural tendency for a lot of you're not alone. Seventy seven million people are were right there with you voting. but if you see that window that they're starting to get that glimmer of well wait a Maybe there's lot of bullshit here. that's not the time to tell them to fuck off, have some empathy, that was probably not the best, but I get why you were there. The whole reason that scapegoating is used is because it fucking works. And it did work on you. But it doesn't mean it has to keep working. And that's the dialectical behavioral therapy perspective is I know isn't necessarily something wrong with me. This was expected, but it doesn't mean I shouldn't change. that's the pattern. Rob (46:25) Don't you find it though ironic that this administration engaged in the whole doge thing and cut so many critical things? But somehow the Department of Blame Management survived. and actually its budget got increased. So, you know, gas prices up, Department Blame Management. Dating life bad, Department of Blame Management. pool green. Department of Blame Management, Aquatic Services. of all the departments to survive, the Department of Blame Management I it's it's surprising to me. David (46:58) it is, but it shouldn't be. we're talking about algorithms, this algorithm has worked time and time again for centuries. It's don't blame me. Blame somebody else. It wasn't my I will accept responsibility for anything good that happens and I will send that off to anybody else. As long as it's not me. are people struggling right now? it's not because of anything that we've done wrong. It's because of the immigrants. The immigrants have caused all of our problems. but that's an easy pill to swallow. That's a simple solution. it's not a solution that works, but it is temporary and it will get you votes. But we're already there. pointing out the ridiculousness of all of those things. It's easy to do. 'cause it's ridiculous. I mean it's ridiculous. the algae in the fucking pool, they've never been able to deal with the algae in the fucking pool. the ridiculous part was thinking that you could. or even thinking that that was a necessary thing to do, to spend sixteen million dollars of taxpayer money to do something that Obama tried to do ten years ago and spent thirty million dollars in two years trying to do the same thing and it didn't work. that's ridiculous. out and I could laugh at it. Rob (47:51) Uh-huh. I feel like there's like a National Park Service that's in charge of that though. it just kills me the investment of time, energy and effort. at any rate, you know what we should do? David (48:08) If you but no and you're right it's just so silly. There's there's that asinine quality to it. that's why I say I don't is it just the easy thing? Well, why does the president care? in the middle of a economic crisis ain't a war. The president cares about the fucking reflecting pool on the mall. other president would give a shit about this, at least in modern times. but the fact that people are defending it, that's the story to me. That's the interesting thing. But why are they defending it? Because psychologically they have no choice. All they can do in their own minds is defend voting for this person. And at some point, he will do something so ridiculous and so stupid. why we haven't hit it yet, apparently, that people will start to fall out and they'll start to go, okay, that's it. I can't. I can't anymore. And for those of us who love those people, we gotta be willing to accept that of course they fell for it because that's why it was being done in the first place. Why go through all the trouble of having a scapegoat it wasn't the answer to the question. But that was the easy thing to believe because otherwise you'd have to ask yourself, what could I be doing? What could I do to make my life better? Not what can somebody else be doing? and that's psychologically normal. That's a normal thing. Rob (49:22) I like your D B T frame, you're right. David (49:24) does that mean it's right? Does that mean we should keep doing it? No. But should we push people away and say, you've been around my entire life, but for a four year period of time, you believe something that I think is ridiculous. And so we're done. No, not if they're coming out of it, you wanna fix this country? at least get our democracy back on track. don't push people back towards the thing that's fucking it up. back towards Rob (49:49) Agreed. All right. You got any prescriptions for today? David (49:52) I mean, I feel like that was my prescription, Rob (49:54) Okay. All right. I got one. people must stop mistaking shared hatred for shared meaning. A mob can feel like community the same way Taco Bell can feel like Mexican food at one thirty in the morning. It meets an emotional need, but there are consequences. David (50:11) And the consequences I think are similar. Rob (50:13) Yeah, a lot of GI distress. Yeah, yeah. David (50:15) You get the Baja Blast. Rob (50:18) David, such a card. David (50:21) so my prescription when someone offers you one villain who explains everything wrong in your life, just ask whether there's a subscription fee So was hit like, hit subscribe. You know it's funny, for the fact that I understand the algorithm and how it works, I have no idea, Robbie, how to actually make it work for our show. I think we're just not likable. ⁓ Rob (50:41) You know, here's a funny thing about my kid well, you're not likable. I'm I I'm actually a lovely man. people like me. but my kids actually very much understand the algorithms that they're beholden to, and they will occasionally make comment about reframing their algorithm. they will realize they're getting the same things over and over and they will intentionally do something crazy that's completely off track so that it sort of resets their And I Jesus as much as I bemoan certain aspects of the differences between their generation and mine, they're pretty savvy. when it comes to the stuff I'm not savvy to, my solution is I don't do TikTok, I don't do Instagram, I don't do Facebook, because I can't manage it. They manage it just fine. David (51:33) Well, think i yes, the answer for our generations, and I say our generations because we are different I'm not the greatest generation, unfortunately. You but I am. You are yeah. You're a you're a gen you're you're a boomer if you were anything the greatest generation. Pretty sure your your brother fought in World War One. ⁓ in spirit. Yeah. Rob (51:38) I know. are. I am not either, man. I'm a Gen Xer. I'm totally Gen X. I in spirit I in spirit in spirit I'm a I'm a boomer, but in reality I was born firmly within the Gen X zone. David (52:00) Those big mutton chop that turns into a mustache thing you got going tells me different. But anyway, so to just not be on social media is one way, seems like Gen Gen Z, Gen Zeta, whatever you Z, however you whatever country you're listening to us in, in Gen Alpha. They know that like with their relationships, if they're on TikTok, they gotta modify, what they're like too much tits and ass and their girlfriend's gonna break up with them because they're looking at you they're they're gawking at the wrong stuff. ironically, one of my kids, 'cause I just did a quick look at the cell phone to make sure that we're not going into territory that's gonna need to talking about. Nope, nothing. Not a not a damn thing. So he's either ⁓ managing yeah, he's he's cleaning his or something, I don't know, but it's made me stop and look at it for longer than a half a second. So it's pretty but yeah, they figured it out. the problem is I understand how to make your own algorithm not Rob (52:44) Cleaning it. Mm-hmm. David (52:58) just be its own echo chamber. I understand how to do that. What I don't understand is how to get other people to listen to us. that's the piece I'm missing. I've no fucking clue how to get other people maybe I just need to write like Rob (53:11) Better podcasting, maybe? I I don't let's not give away our agency here, David. we we'll let's not go the incel route. you know, the agency is maybe we're just bad podcasters. David (53:14) that's too hard. No, this is It's not that, Robbie. It's clearly the deep state. The deep state is holding us down. I think with people understood that we are giving them just gold. Free gold. ⁓ it's the deep state. Rob (53:31) It's it's right. We're just sending it out in the airwaves. I mean, just right over the interwebs, just coming at ya. Gold. Gold. Gold. David (53:39) Yeah. It's not our fault. No, we don't have to be better. I think we need to stop being held down by the man. Yeah. I'm pretty sure it's it's penguins are doing this to us. Rob (53:45) Man. Maybe maybe that's what we need to do. We need to scapegoat more. So anyway, we'll work on it next week. David (53:56) We should scapegoat more. Yeah. do have an advertisement, so listen so this episode of Shrink the Nation is brought to you by our own merch store. Because sometimes after discussing grievance, scapegoating, moral permission, and the psychological collapse of public life, you need something a little lighter, like a shirt or a mug, or a physical object that says, I'm trying to remain psychologically grounded while everyone around me is building the conspiracy board out of vibes. Rob (54:00) Course you do. David (54:22) So go to Shrinkthenation.com slash merch and check out the official Shrinkenation gear. It's perfect for therapists, political junkies, emotionally exhausted citizens, and anyone who's ever said, I don't want to diagnose this person, but I do want to understand what behavior is being rewarded. Again, that's shrinkthenation.com slash merch. Shrink the nation merch because outrage is temporary, but a good mug can hold coffee through several constitutional crises. And you know you're gonna get a few just this week. All right. Well that's it for us. I'm gonna cue up that music and we are out.