The Enemy You Needed

David (00:00) You ever notice how much easier life becomes once you've decided whose fault everything is? Not better, just easier. Because uncertainty? Uncomfortable. Complexity? Uncomfortable. Looking in the mirror? Uncomfortable. But finding an enemy? Ooh, that's simple. This week we're talking about politics, foreign policy, incels, grievance, and a pattern that keeps showing up in all of them. The moment private frustration and pain becomes public complaints and blame. This is Shrink Nation. Let's go. David (01:15) All right, welcome back. I'm David. I've got twenty plus years in military. I'm also board certified psychiatrist and today is Father's Day. So Father's Day out there to all the gentlemen in in our tens who's our fives, yeah, our fives of fathers out there who've had their loins engaged in Rob (01:29) five's the listeners. David (01:35) procreative processes. Rob (01:36) Y you had to go there. You had to go there. David (01:39) Well, all the work you did to become a dad. I mean I'm just proud of the tens of minutes that it took our fives of listeners to sire offspring. Rob (01:41) Yeah. Right. I I I think you've ta already went off the rails and we're fifty three seconds in. So hey everybody. it's Rob. I'm gonna swoop in here and save David from his terrible analogies and and bad decision making this early in the morning. I've I don't know, a bunch of years on the planet Earth and a lot of them were in the military and more of them weren't, and a lot of them were in psychiatry. Oddly enough, more than weren't at this point in my life. also would like to I have I have side offspring. and I do wish Happy Father's Day to all the all the dads out there. I'm actually more focused on all the work that was required after they came onto earth. so hopefully everyone listening, good dads. David (02:13) He too is sired offspring. Okay, so so dozens of of minutes spent saying things like shut the fuck up. I'm watching the game. Rob (02:34) Get me a beer. Yeah. David (02:35) And rub some dirt on it. Rob (02:37) Yeah. Yeah, don't do that. It hurts. David (02:38) You got if you're gonna cry, I'll give you something to cry about. All the all the dad sayings. Actually my favorite one is if you're cold, go stand in that corner. It's ninety degrees. Rob (02:44) All the all Never heard that one. David (02:50) Look at that Epiphanes. Rob (02:51) Must be ⁓ that that must be unique to your neck of the woods. David (02:55) Yeah, we we do math here. It's not Appalachia. we know that corners are ninety degrees. Rob (02:57) Yeah. Yep. All right. All right. It's early and I'm slow, but may maybe I just need more coffee. so folks, it's yet again an early morning for us. And so this is two bourbon free shows in a row. I'm back with my old standby, Black Rifle Coffee. David (03:15) And I've got a giant ass grenade shaped mug, which is I think four Americanos fitting here. And I'm gonna fe feeling good at the end of this in a different way than normal. Rob (03:26) yeah, that's that's gotta be two hundred milligrams of caffeine there. David (03:31) If if there's one. yeah. But we can still do our drinking game. Okay, let's see. Rob (03:32) Yep. David (03:35) I'll go with Bad joke's from me. You can drink. Robbie. Rob (03:38) a relatively high probability of bad jokes from you. I you know David (03:41) gonna say if if you say an acronym incorrectly Rob (03:48) Yeah, that's a high probability. stimulates high probability. and then there's my old standbys. at this particular juncture, I seem to say that a lot. I I don't I yeah. there's nothing quite like doing a podcast to point out your your verbal ticks, and also the the moments when you mispronounce something. so yeah, that that's a good starting point for us. David (03:53) Always. That's a good one. do anything that's well that the Gen Z would consider cringe, I'd say just drink. Just drink. Like using the word cringe. Rob (04:16) Cringe. It's like ninety cringe. Cringe is cringe. yeah, it's about ninety ninety five percent of my my life, I I fear, falls into the cr cringe category. So David, what are we gonna talk about today? David (04:22) Drink. Okay. Well, we got a couple of topics and I think the one we gotta man, the the the the gift that just keeps on giving Robbie is this DNI post. Holy shit. when is this gonna happen? but Rob (04:43) Yep, the come back kid. David (04:44) Comeback kid. It really is. I think Bill Poulty, you've got to be impressed for somebody who has just no actual qualifications, has been called out by both sides, he's back. Bill is back. Rob (04:58) He's back and he showed up a day early. looking for the employee logs. David (05:02) Yeah, just a interesting story. okay, so for those of you who aren't aware of what happened, what occurred I think is that we pointed out that Jay Clayton also not qualified to do that job and everyone said, Okay, fine, no, not him too. of course I'm kidding. No, I don't think anybody listens to us other than the Tenza Doo and you know, I'm Sure this is just playing in the background for most people's pets to keep them entertained while they're at work. So probably not because we said anything, but what happened was from various reporting was that there was pushback bipartisan on Bill Poulti of of the Poulti Homes legacy for having no Experience in the intelligence realm and people realizing this is a loyalty pick. and for some reason that bothered the Senate this time. seem to bother him for a lot of other things, but it bothered them this time. the administration, and by the administration, we mean Donald Trump, said, Just kidding, this an interim pick. And so they instead put Jake Clayton. up for the nomination, which I thought was kind of quick because it looked like that was gonna just completely surplant the interim pick. and as we discussed last week, Jay Clayton does have fairly impressive legal resume, but again no intelligence experience. And so before his nomination hearing, the Senate, I guess they weren't moving quickly enough on the FISA bill, which is the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, specifically Section 702, which goes over whether the US intelligence agencies are allowed to collect communications of non US persons located outside of the United States without obtaining a traditional search warrant. for each target. this was something that was going to expire sort of naturally and Donald Trump was not pleased with the amount of time that it was either taking to complete this, but he also wanted the Save America Act to be mixed in As they were looking to extend it. And the Senate was not willing to do that. Now, the Save America Act, we don't need to get into it, look it up, but essentially it fucks with elections in so many ways. Rob (07:13) in order to to register to vote it requires proof of American citizenship. So it requires a passport or a birth certificate. the assumption is, and I I don't know why this is always the assumption, but the assumption is is that those who might vote Democrat are going to have more difficulty producing said documents than folks that would vote conservative. I don't think that's accurate. honestly I think you know, folks who are lower socioeconomic status are going to have challenges because I don't know how many people have a passport, but even even having possession of an original copy of your birth certificate could be difficult for a good swath of the American population. David (07:54) Well, ironically, I think when they cleansed the rolls in my home state, kind of pushing for some of these things, what they found right before this last election was that the vast majority of people who got cleaned off of the rolls for not having the proper proof of citizenship were actually elderly Republicans, had to be a last order from a judge to undo the cleansing of the rolls because it actually would have lost the Republican Party hundreds of thousands of votes and and you don't have your original birth certificate. when you're getting ready to leave the planet, you're not really so interested in Rob (08:20) Yeah, I mean if you're eighty two years old, like like you're gonna have a copy of your David (08:29) when you showed up. This actually reminds me of probably every single command that I was ever at where you would come in and have this like ridiculous command checklist to come in the door. I actually had that every time I left because I never turned it in because as it turns out, the command check-in list is fucking bullshit. it's like two weeks of walking around meeting people that you'll never meet again. until the day that you leave. Rob (08:55) one other element to the FISA fight too is that the reason they originally allowed it to grandfather and this was bipartisan, on both sides of the aisle they said, We're not giving this power to Bill Poulty. based on his past so he he worked in the federal housing security agency. federal housing finance agency. All right, drink, I messed up a yeah. David (09:13) Finance. Security might actually make him sound as if he had some kind of credential to be in DNI. Intelligence security, they sound similar, but no, Rob (09:28) had access to mortgage records and there is general speculation and if you're you're keeping track at home, many of DOJ attacks on on political enemies of this administration has been focused on surprise, surprise, mortgages. so there was some speculation he utilized his access to that mortgage information in order to facilitate these DOJ lawsuits. So both sides said, we don't trust him with FISA powers. We're letting this sunset. it was a dual thing. One is the FISA was passed right after nine eleven and it it has never set completely easy with the American people. but so that was part of it and then part of it is David (10:08) Well it interestingly well Rob (10:10) that this was a protest against Bill Poulte as a selection because he's so utterly unqualified and has already demonstrated he utilizes governmental power for political ends. David (10:21) Well and what's interesting too is that MAGA has never been a fan of Fiza, which dates back to Russia Gate. and I guess we should explain FISA. section seven two gives the government the ability to surveil non US citizens without a warrant. in their investigations. But what that can do and often does is it sweeps up US citizens into those investigations because they may be on those communications or they may just be found during the collection of information to have some involvement or or just whatever. Maybe they weren't even they just happen to tap everything. and so MAGA has never liked this because they have believed that Donald Trump was also swept up in this because of Russia Gate and other investigations. So anytime anything would happen to Donald Trump, it would be an accusation against the government spying on him, X, Y, or Z, which may or may not be true. I don't know. I just wasn't part of that. I have no no fucking clue. But what's interesting is that now that He's in control. He wants the ability to have the power. and having somebody like Bill Poulte, who critics have argued, has weaponized his role in other governmental positions to attack perceived enemies, the concern would be that putting him into a position that has more than just financial housing records would potentially be even more dangerous. And so I think this goes a bit deeper than what we discussed, but you know, we sort of poke fun at the fact that the man has no qualifications to be the D and I. ⁓ Rob (11:52) Right. So when when you need someone to coordinate the CIA, the NSA, the DIA, the FBI and fifteen other agencies, you naturally go to a mortgage guy. David (12:02) I I would. But if the mortgage guy was willing to pull whatever records he could on anybody that you didn't like and feed that to the DOJ, would be a good pick if that's what you're looking for because the D and I's gonna have access to literally everything. the assumed goal. Rob (12:14) Yeah. That's the goal. interesting thing this week is that because of that FISA section seven two kerfluffle and the the fact that tr Trump had insisted the Save America Act be included in that vote and the Senate Republicans refused, he then canceled the confirmation hearing for Jay Clayton. in doing so, well one, he didn't have really the authority to do it, but you know, he probably bleeded it out on he truth social note. so he bleeded it out a wounded goat and as the ultimate fuck you to his Senate allies, he then went back David (12:45) A truth social that yeah, he he did a bleach. Rob (12:57) too Poulty. so this was this was a poke in the eye to specifically Senate Republicans, which is fascinating. I mean it was a little bit of a temper tantrum. we're back to the psychology of making a bad pick and and being so psychologically fragile. You can't admit it was a bad pick. you double down on it. but this was clearly an FU to his Republican led Senate. David (13:21) Yeah, and I think the interesting thing to me, Robbie, is that it's not just fact that he tried to cancel the Senate confirmation hearing via Truth Social, which is just chef's kiss, childish. But the fact that John Thune, the Senate Majority Leader, actually said he doesn't have the authority to cancel this hearing. The only way we're not having this hearing is if he pulls the pick or Jay Clayton is told not to show up and doesn't. That's the only way we're not doing it. And that seems like such a small thing, but this is a very big pushback on the administration's attempt to run this country as a CEO runs a a business. And because there are co equal branches of government, now for those of you who might be MAGA and don't understand what co equal means, it means they each have a same amount of authority in their realm. Not they each acquiesce to one, But this is the first time that they've exercised that from the Senate perspective of you're not in charge here of us. We decide what's going to happen. Now, psychologically though, that's fascinating. having not seen this yet, what's happening? are they finally pushing back? On Donald Trump. Rob (14:40) well, part of it ultimately is because Donald Trump has put himself in this position. so when push the bounds over and over again, you make your other Republicans who are less shameless. actually just to be clear, I I am not really necessarily picking on Republicans as being more shameless. than Democrats. There are plenty of examples of shameless Democrats. it's a equal opportunity offender. but most of our politicians actually are bound by a certain amount of public image saying what they mean, following through with what they say. And he's made them you know, bend over and kiss their own asses so many times that their poor backs are just shot. You know, there's only so much flexibility politicians can in. So that's part of it. Part of it is he's forced this over and over and over again and they finally found something in which they could coalesce and actually, you know, straighten their backs and show that they had a bit of a spine. the other part is is that he's he's primaried so many of them. interestingly not because they weren't allies. I mean when you look at their voting records, they were ninety-five plus percent right along with him. But in that world, if it's not a hundred percent, it's zero percent. So it's the Ricky Bobby model of of loyalty which is your first or your last baby. That's it. so he primaried several of them. they're often referred to as the YOLO caucus now, which you only live once. But now that they're have been primaried, they're not up for re-election, they're lame ducks, they're finishing out their time, they all of a sudden have really no compelling reason to be you know blindly loyal to this president. David (16:18) Yeah, But I think what their big concern at this point now is from John Thune, because he's not been primaried, would be what are they gonna do with the midterms? Because I think what they're finally starting to see, it's not just a shameless I mean, hit Donald Trump is shameless. the Senate and the Congress have shamelessly followed him to whatever end. it was working, guess, them. when his polling numbers were decent, and they think anything close to fifty percent is decent, I think they were fine. I think they felt okay. Yeah, I mean he's he's making the people happy. He's polling terribly now. and following him is no longer an asset, it's a liability. And that's gonna change your habits, it's gonna change what you're willing to do or not do. and as it turns out, when you put up a pick that everybody views as being ridiculous, and you think, I'm gonna pay the price for this, That's what's interesting. It's not just that he's punishing and I agree with you, yes. he has primaried enough of the Republican Party to weaken his caucus, significantly, where their ability to just pass things isn't what he thinks it is, apparently. but then add in the fact that it's becoming a problem for them in their own aspirations to continue to exist within this government, not just because he's a danger to them and that he will try to get them primaried, but also in that the people are watching them do the things that he wants them to do and it's just not working. but they're going against even their own Republican values. it's not small government when the federal government is trying to make all the decisions. It's not fiscally responsible to make the debt skyrocket. It's just not following the Republican values that they're even used to. And so while he was winning and looking good, they were okay with following it and now they're not. we could all see how somebody eventually you'd say, Hey, we're not winning. So we're not gonna keep following you. it took a But Rob (18:09) Mm-hmm. David (18:10) Here they are, with the midterms around the corner. I think finally realizing the writing's gonna be on the wall if they keep doing what he wants. Rob (18:16) Yep, that's a good ad. let's move on to the Iran situation. It's taken a few turns this past week. David (18:20) One second. And we will move on, Robbie, but first we have a commercial. So this episode is brought to you today by Validation Depot. Are you a middle aged professional with a stable career, loving family, and meaningful accomplishments? But somehow still convinced that one negative comment on Facebook has destroyed your entire self worth? Then come on down to Robbie's Validation Depot. At Robbie's, we understand that inner confidence is hard. 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Rob (19:29) Yeah, and you know, I've been utilizing this service now for about ten months and and it's truly changed my life. you know, unearned validation has really made all the difference for me. And what I'd encourage our tens of listeners to understand is projection is a hell of a drug. it ain't them champ, it's you. So David (19:48) Robbie, this is where supposed to look at the camera, say, I'm not just the CEO, then take off your hat and say, Rob (19:54) Mm. Yeah. All right. So with that a and yeah, everybody, please subscribe to that. I I'm sure it's Forty nine ninety nine. it's a pittance. David (19:55) Okay. Well. It's forty it's forty five forty seven. We're gonna go with the cell the cell phone plan cost. Rob (20:06) Forty five, forty seven. Okay. perfect. it's a pittance for what it gets. And you know, I will personally hand write on a sticky note that you can put in your brand brown bag lunch that you know every day. So well I'll have I'll have to use auto pen. I'll just have to. I'm sorry. so Iran. Iran's taken some turns this week and it it's become David (20:18) Every day. You're not gonna use autopen, are you? Son of a bitch. Rob (20:30) a hostage negotiation meets a narcissistic Thanksgiving family dinner. it's sort of fascinating in that, you know, it's no longer really I mean, fundamentally the the agreement that was signed was not a peace deal. it was equivalent of a promise ring that you know some fourteen-year-old might give his girlfriend. it is I promise that maybe someday possibly we might think about making a promise to then maybe think about accomplishing something. and within, you know, a day of that promisory note being signed, memo, memo of understanding, Iran again announced. We've the Strait of Hormos. David (21:13) You know, i I think the promise ring analogy is pretty good because I wonder how many promise rings have been used to give a hand job to somebody who did not give that person the promise ring. promise ring has this promise ring has touched a lot of penises. Rob (21:26) Drink everyone. We're we're we're in that we're in that sk we're in that sketchy analogy zone, folks. You might as well just go ahead and guzzle it right now. David (21:36) that's all I can think of is like whoever gave this promise ring isn't the one getting the hand job later that Rob (21:41) No, it's not JD Vance. No, no. I I also yeah, no one's t no right, no one's touching his penis. his energy also has me just just slayed. he's got that that yeah, I know this is a group pro Right. He's g David (21:46) don't ruin don't fucking ruin everyone's day, Robbie. I'm helping. He's like he's like Todd Bojack Horseman. Rob (22:01) I'm hoping. he's got that. I know this is a group project, but I still think I can personally get extra credit energy running right now. clearly, clearly thinking this this is his springboard into a run for the presidency here in a few years. David (22:17) I like the group project analogy because every group project that I've ever been on in my life, I ultimately ended up doing all the work, but there was always somebody there who then took all the credit. the difference here is I don't know who's doing any of the work on this group project. Pakistan maybe. And those who are getting credit, and it's a not a great project, and it's not turning out well and it's touching penises, which doesn't make a lot of sense, Robbie. Rob (22:40) We've got We've got the dream team of international diplomacy. We've got JD Vance, we've got Steve Whitkoff and we've got Jared Kushner. none of which have had significant experience in, international relations, none of which any training in it. none of them have any expert knowledge about, I don't know, nuclear material, ballistic missile capabilities, th those the sorts of things that you actually have to know the details because the details are gonna matter. when when all these things are written down in words on paper that's supposed to be followed to the letter, the twist of a few words can make a huge difference. and both sides, both this administration and I guess by extension the United States, and Iran have demonstrated that they will sign anything and it does not necessarily compel them to follow it. So ⁓ David (23:40) Well, it's an MOU, right? It's not a deal. compelled to follow something that says, I am compelled to follow this, which is this plan to make a deal. I mean, this is the concepts of a plan. Rob (23:52) so you know, one of the interesting things about this is that, you know, the JCOA, which is has you know, been Trump's whipping boy f David (24:00) Drink, everybody, drink. Rob (24:02) J C P A. David (24:03) Drink again. Rob (24:05) J C P O A. All right. Good deal. so the J C P O A, clearly I have a problem with that. What? J P C O A. so that David (24:09) J P C O A. Damn it, it's the J P C O A. Well, but you said JCOA. No, it's the JCPOA. God damn it. Everyone drink. We're all drinking. It's the JCPOA. Joint comprehensive plan of action. Rob (24:18) Yeah. We're all drinking. It's a tough that's a tough one. J. Yes. and it's been a a whipping boy of Trump's f before he even ran for his original term. in that and you know he talks about us flying in pallets of money. and there's actually some truth to that. We really did fly in pallets of money. because they were disconnected from international banking. So we actually had to provide cash. Now it was their money. It was money that that was locked up in in the sanctions that we freed up. And I think it was like one billion dollars or one point five billion dollars. David (24:52) Well they they had actually purchased weapons from us, is it the fifties or seventies? They had purchased weapons from us and then we didn't yeah, and we didn't give them the weapons. And so there was money that was frozen assets that was theirs. we just didn't give it to them. when you look at the JCPOA Rob (25:00) Right before the fall, yeah. David (25:10) It there was about somewhere between a hundred and a hundred and fifty billion dollars of frozen assets that were to be released in some way or shape or form. A lot of question marks as to if they would have gotten that money, how much they would have gotten, where it would have actually come from, and everything else. So there's a lot of question marks. The this deal includes three hundred billion dollars. Rob (25:32) A a basement, a minimum of three hundred billion. David (25:34) A basement, to rebuild the country that we just bombed the ever loving pechizus drink, people. be Jesus out of. And now again, still question marks on where is that money coming from? Who's gonna actually end up paying it, things like that. But I I'm not a mathematician. I'm never claimed to be nor will I be, but I do believe three hundred billion is more than one hundred and fifty billion, which was the number that Donald Trump would frequently cite when saying how bad the JCPOA was. and so it it's it's it's it's more. It's more money. Yeah. Rob (26:06) Yeah, it's more. It's more. and it's simply not giving off the vibe to me success is eminent. because here's here's something that I know without a doubt. And it's tempting as Americans to assume that we are the best at everything. it's not entirely true. you know, we we certainly have the most powerful military that has ever been constructed in the history of the world. that is absolutely true. but we don't have the dream team actually doing the negotiations. And I promise you Iran brought their dream team. they have included very best that they have to offer. And if you make the mistake of thinking because it's Iran, they don't have intelligent, brilliant, well-educated people, you're gonna be at a disadvantage because they absolutely do. so it's gonna be interesting to see how this thing plays out, and it's gonna be even more interesting watching the administration twist itself in knots to validate the dear leader, that this is this is still a better deal, because it's it's objectively not. It's objectively not a better deal. And in fact, it's not even a deal. It's it's a memo of understanding. David (27:20) I think it's easy to look at it and assume that it's it's not a better deal. Well, it's not a deal at all. And I think that's that's probably the one important thing to think about. what I find fascinating about it all is that only time will tell as to whether this can be a better deal than the JCPOA was. the question marks that come into play would be well, if it ends up not being a better deal, it worth it? were the efforts to get back to even get to the point of having the ability to sit down and have a deal, were those efforts worthwhile? and I think the critics would argue probably no, because the JCPOA was a fairly comprehensive anti nuclear deal. that was being followed. There were inspectors, were specific requirements and limitations and everything. but the supporters would say now that, well, this war weakened them the militarily, economically, emotionally enough to come back and have a deal. Or to potentially make a deal. And so if the deal is stronger on the back end, is that a better deal? I don't know. I'm not really here to I can't I couldn't tell you we'd have to see what the deal ends up being. an argument might be, but would we have ever had to have done all the military actions and the loss of life and all the economic pain and suffering and everything that's happened had the original JCPOA just been left Rob (28:25) Right. Well David (28:40) in place because it got canceled nothing to replace it. you could certainly make the argument that once it was canceled, Iran did not have to start making more and more nuclear material. And so there's a lot of like what ifs, but i this is this is one of those things where Rob (28:51) Yeah. David (28:56) Time will probably tell us more than anything. I think my big concern is that we've demonstrated that Iran has the ability shut down the Strait of Hormonas whenever they want, and that gives them a power. Rob (29:07) They have. the interesting thing is they don't need nukes anymore. they have a nuclear option, which is shut down the straight horn moves. So nukes all of a sudden became less important to them. it became less valuable to them and it's right there and it's been there and we've we've allowed them to prove they can do it. Now we're clearly not experts. We can weigh in and have opinions because you know everyone's got one. But from a psychological standpoint, this is shame management under geopolitical stress. so when a state feels cornered, they don't really ask what is rational. they ask what can we do so that we don't look weak. that's how you get materially irrational But necessary behavior. So Iran has to show it's not been humiliated. Trump needs to show he's dominant. Vance needs to show that he's actually a statesman and he's not just the guy that got sent to clean up dad's mess. the regional actors need to show that they were were not abandoned and they were not duped. markets need a boring predictability and What we end up here and what we'll see as this proceeds is that this is emotionally theatrical politics. And emotionally theatrical politics are just really bad at production. so we're gonna see some serious psychological twisting in the wind as each side tries to make a statement, not so much reach a deal, not so much do something that's rational, but to save face. David (30:33) have this situation where critics and and arguably we're we're a couple of them, the critics are gonna look at this and say, but none of this was necessary in the first place, You had a deal in place. and you can make this argument, certainly. You had a deal in place, you canceled it, you created a mess, Rob (30:44) Absolutely. David (30:50) You shit on the floor and then want everybody to pat you on the back for cleaning it up. it's a fair argument to make. drink, by the way, you could make a fair argument that applies. the more I think difficult thing to do psychologically for all of us is to be able to look at the situation and remove a couple of things. One would well, it's irrelevant who's shit on the floor when there's a big pile of shit on the floor. at that point it's already there. There's a big steaming pile of well done steak and ketchup. Rob (31:23) Visceral. David (31:23) on the floor. Now we know who dropped trow and left that there. or or it fell out of a depend or something. I don't know. But it we know how it got there. it has to be cleaned up, we can't just leave it there and say this is your fault, you're gonna sit there and look at it. It's gotta get cleaned up. Rob (31:24) it hit ⁓ ⁓ it hit me at my core. In that rat hole. David (31:42) the other side needs to not just pat on the back the person who cleans up their own mess that they created and say, You deserve a peace prize. Wow, look, you stopped the war. That you started. Like you don't get a peace prize for that. You know, you don't get extra credit for cleaning up the mess you made. So I think that's psychologically, that's like the really, really hard thing to do is to separate yourself from all of the history, on both sides and and just say, Okay, we have a mess, it has to get cleaned up, and no, you don't get extra credit for cleaning it up. Right now, because the Democrats have so little power in government, they're kind of just sitting back, pointing the finger and saying, Well, you you made the mess, you need to clean it up, and everybody remember who made the mess. do you want somebody walking around the White House with a leaky depends streaming out the bottom of his pant leg? 'Cause he's in his eighties, you know, like tripping over tripping over his own testicles from time to time. Rob (32:30) Well whether whether you want it, you don't want it, you got it. So here here's my last thought on that, and then we'll move forward is I find that the Strait of Hormuz has become its own character in this story. you know, the strait is it's open, it's closed, it's symbolically opened, emotionally unavailable, it's potentially seeing other people. it's become a character I'm rooting for the strait. I'm rooting for the strait. I think it wants to be open, I think. David (33:00) That's most anti LGBTQ thing I've ever heard you you gotta wonder though too is of the ships that did make it through for, you know, however many hours it was open, how many of those are like Russian and Chinese that would be the most trolling thing Iran could do is say we've opened it up just to let Chinese and Russian oil make it through. Rob (33:18) ⁓ there's gonna there's gonna yeah. There's gonna be a Lego YouTube video on this and it's just gonna be these Lego tankers going through the strait, the strait waving and smiling happily and Russian and Chinese flags flying. So okay. David (33:23) All right, I just Okay. before we move on. Rob (33:37) Shit. David (33:37) Alright, so this episode is brought to you today by Robbie's Need to Be Right Insurance. Have you ever been caught in the horrifying situation of discovering that you may have been mistaken? A bad feeling, isn't it? Really gets you to the core, it's visceral. Fortunately, Robbie's Need to Be Right Insurance has you covered. Our trained specialists immediately deploy one of several proven interventions. Moving the goalposts, introducing new information, changing the subject, claiming that's what you meant all or our most popular package, that's not what I when it's recorded, even when there's video, even when it happened 15 seconds ago, Robbie's need to be right insurance because growth is hard. Rob (34:15) Yeah. I I do have to avoid listening to past episodes of our podcast because it does highlight just how many times I'm wrong. and you know what I love Well, you know what I love about me? it's the confidence by which I can be wrong. I'm just utterly all in and never seem to learn either. David (34:26) That's what you meant, Robbie. That's what you meant. It's harder it's harder when there's no bourbon. but that confidence is strong. so let's get to let's get to our last topic, Robbie. Let's move on. Rob (34:38) That's the truth. the truth. Yeah, so so last week we talked about Andrew Tate we made mention of incels multiple times. if you're a true hardcore listener of Shrink the Nation, we once had an episode talking about the plight of young men in today's world and how it's affected their politics. David (34:59) man, that was I got so much rough feedback from the shit you and Keith said, Rob. I swear to God. I was like, I didn't even say that. I I wasn't even and man, I got railroaded. I got fucking railroaded. Rob (35:03) Yeah. Yeah I know, I know. It wasn't me. Yeah. Well, yeah, that that's the cost of being near greatness, my friend. Anyway, so we've mentioned and I guess tacitly made jokes about incels on several occasions and probably many times throughout the podcast. but I thought you know this might be a a good opportunity for us to just chat about incels. what is an incel? How did they come to be? How do they play into the current manosphere and MAGA world? David (35:42) Rock did they crawl out from underneath? Rob (35:45) Well, you know, the mistake we made the young men episode is that we tried not to punch down. and you know, I think we're at our best when we're not punching down. So I don't wanna punch down here. I really don't. however I David (35:57) I like that you just started off with this the mistake that we made in the previous episode that ended up getting David emotionally pegged with the big one was the thing that we're gonna do this time too. Fucking beautiful, Robbie. I'm looking forward to it. I'll get I'll get the lube out. Rob (36:07) Well right. Well We we are. Look. we are going to channel the best of the Jungian archetype of the warrior and the father. you never punch down. So this is a David (36:27) Robbie, you got a fucking mouse in your pocket. Who is this we? I'm punching fucking straight down. I am just stomping my feet on yeah, you you whatever whatever you say that is uplifting to this population, that is yours, my friend. That is yours. Rob (36:34) All right. All right. All right. W well, I am not going to justify bad behavior at all. but what what I ⁓ do want to do well, I I think it's a worthwhile endeavor to try to understand the population. So f for our audience and and I'm gonna assume most people know what this means, but incel is an abbreviation for involuntarily celibate. And it's a group of young men, David (36:49) But you will explain it away. You will Rob (37:08) c you know, classically in the like eighteen to thirty two year age range, who for various reasons feel like they have been shut out of the dating market. that they are in David (37:19) Wait, Robbie, Hold on, Robbie. I just got a copy handed to me. This episode is brought to you today by Robbie's Institute for Advanced Incel Studies. Have you recently been rejected? Been on a bad date? had someone leave you on a read? Then why take responsibility when you can join a movement? At Robbie's Institute for Advanced Incel Studies, our trained grievance professionals will help you transform ordinary disappointment Into a comprehensive worldview. Our curriculum includes introduction to externalization. Learn why every problem in your life is actually someone else's fault. Intermediate resentment. Turn temporary setbacks into permanent identity. Advanced statistics. Misuse evolutionary psychology to explain things you don't understand. Graduate seminar: how to blame women for problems caused by your personality. And for our premium members, Robbie personally teaches the Alpha Mindset, a revolutionary system that allows you to simultaneously believe you're superior to everyone around you. Society is rigged against you. Nobody appreciates your greatness, and none of this is your fault. Early reviews have been overwhelmingly negative, which we naturally interpret as proof that we're right. Side effects may include excessive podcasting, comment section combat. Rob (38:14) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. David (38:29) YouTube rabbit holes, chronic victimhood, and an inability to make eye contact with women. Robbie's Institute for Advanced Incel Studies Because self improvement is hard, but blaming society is free. All right, sorry, that one just came in came came in hot off the press. Rob (38:44) Hot off the presses, hot off the presses. Had to get that out. okay. so the real issue is the ideology that can grow out of this sexual rejection, social isolation, shame, and perceived humiliation. And this population has sort of taken an interesting approach to this. So w when you you face those kinds of challenges, I suppose there's, you know, there's a fork in the road, we'll say, you know. is that a w wall David (39:11) They should just go into the woods and kill a bear with a knife, right, Robbie? That's what they're lacking. Rob (39:16) Well, I mean I that that is one way you can approach this. I mean you can go into radical self improvement, I suppose. you know, another route, and in many ways maybe the easier route is to devolve into misogynistic victimhood, blame women a as if they're a different species OMO. It's really quite striking. And I guess the the fascinating thing that I find in this population is that they are clearly a humiliated population, but they have fallen back to a very narcissistic defense of that humiliation. And they blame others, they blame women. which has something to do with like, you know, men who are successful with women, were dealt the a better genetic hand, you know, they have a better skull shape. it's these really kind of antiquated ideas about attractiveness and appearance and genetics, and that it was just sort of baked into the cake and they really didn't have to do anything, and it's not about really what tends to attract the opposite sex, which is kindness, a little bit of self care, demonstrating that you have some goals and drive. David (40:25) the real answer to their problem, and Tom Petty showed us this, is learn to play guitar. Rob (40:31) That'd be a healthier way to go, no doubt. David (40:34) Yeah. if you are an unattractive man and you are struggling to find women, learn to play guitar. I mean that's it. Rob (40:41) Well there there was a paper actually released just this year ⁓ on ⁓ it was incel radicalization and it identified a pathway from these teenagers who by nature are self-conscious about their appearance. social isolation, and psychological distress. David (40:44) Was it called Learn to Play Guitar? There probably was. Rob (41:00) led into blame seeking and radicalization and this kind of post-radicalization identity. And this is affecting such a significant portion of our male population, our young male population. it's capturing them in their teen years when they are the most vulnerable. And you know, I I assume our tens of listeners have all been teenagers. I remember being a teenager still, even though it's been a while. I remember being very uncomfortable with my looks and my height and whether my hair was right. I actually had hair then, so I had to something I had think about. whether people ⁓ what I I you know, you hit a certain point in your life and you're like meh. David (41:37) You're not self conscious about all this stuff now, Robbie? Rob (41:43) This is what I got, man. You know? ⁓ well, it's kind of like the people who refuse to have their picture taken. And they're refusing to have their picture taken, not because everyone else doesn't know what they look like. Everyone else sees them. It's that they don't want to see themselves. and like that's a solution. But it it is. I mean, you know, sure. but but this is a young population who are. David (41:44) Hmm. Face made for radio, but okay, sure. Rob (42:07) ridiculously sensitive to those sorts of things and it's capturing them. And then the other element that I I'm curious about your take on is the world has changed so much. COVID, social media, these aesthetic lives, these beautiful people leading beautiful that seem perfect. And it's all feeding into this psychology. David (42:27) Yeah. Okay, so I I I wanna preface so many you you cut deep there sometimes. because you're absolutely right. I wanna separate the understanding of how somebody could go down that rabbit hole with the excusal for choosing to go down that rabbit hole, right? Because I think those are they're two very different to be able to understand psychology, the mindset, the circumstances, the world that can lead to this occurring, because it it it's not happening once or twice. This is happening enough that somebody like Donald Trump could be elected president in the United States. so it does happen and it happens quite a bit. That is not an excuse Rob (42:47) hundred percent. David (43:09) for the behavior and it's not removing the responsibility and the obvious choices that are made in going down that path. in order to combat it, I should say, is to understand it, right? Understand. I don't even feel like people need to have empathy, but an understanding of okay, well that's how that happens and that's part of the process by which we, you know, protect our children from also going down that path. Or, you know, potentially if you can, I don't know how realistic it is, because it's almost a cult like high control behavior once they get into it, to pull them out of that. Now it's not that people can't leave cults and go on to live normal lives, they certainly can. It's just a very difficult process. So I don't know that you just pull somebody out of the incel community and turn their belief processes around. Rob (43:58) Right. Well and what we're talking about is we're trying to understand the wound. We're not justifying the ideology. David (44:05) I if we find about ten different ways to harp on the fact that we don't think this is okay, just maybe emotional pegging that I get later will be with the slightly smaller. Rob (44:18) Mm-hmm. David (44:18) with lube. but as you were discussing the mindset that kind of gets you there. adolescence, late adolescence, teenage years are anybody who can remember, they're they're a difficult time. You're trying to find who you are. your body is doing weird shit as you're turning into an adult, you're awkward, you have like longer arms than you probably should and a shorter body than you probably should. Your voice is all over the fucking place. And if you are the child of divorced parents, you're out visiting your dad for a month while your mom is signing you up for choir. in the midst of your voice changing, right? It's an awkward time. or for I guess chorus class instead of, you know, shop. And Rob (44:55) That that felt oddly autobiographic. David (44:58) It it it it no, not at all, not at all. and so as you're going through these changes and you're sitting in the middle of chorus with only girls and trying to, you know, hide your erection under your that you have no control of it just happens, you know, under your waistband. Rob (45:12) But you have no control over. Every man's done that. Not man, every boy's done that. David (45:18) Yep. ⁓ as you're going through your teenage years, I wanna say the erection is as surprising as it would be for like Donald Trump if he were to have one, right? Like like holy shit, what happened there? They just happened. just as surprising but not as horrifying. so you're awkward. You're you're trying to make it through that. And then introduce the internet. And as we've said before, man, now now all of a sudden you have these social networks that connect people who never would have been connected before. when we were kids, and I have a mouse in my pocket. Because you and I were kids at very different times, very different eras. You used to hide under desks from nuclear fallout and you'd have to go down to the local soda shop and your doctor would walk into the waiting room with a sig in his mouth and tell you you gotta smoke camels, these are the ways to go. When I was a kid, ⁓ the internet was just starting Rob (46:07) Literally. David (46:09) To occur. Like it was it was around, we were starting to get social media, but you didn't really have a great way to connect with masses the way that you do now. And now you have these like very niche things that people can connect on a level. And when you're awkwardly going through these phases, and you're connecting with all of the other people who are awkwardly going through it and trying to explain it away in your dumb teenage brain just doesn't understand the world. you could see how somebody could easily fall down this rabbit hole. again, there's still a choice there because you do have the ability to, you know, look further on the internet beyond some of these wack-a-doodle ideas that the world is out to get you. But I could see where it would happen and I would definitely worry what my Teenage experience had been like if as I was going through these struggles, I had had the ability to hook up with a whole bunch of other people who similarly were going through the struggles, had no knowledge of it, and then came up with these ideas that, well, it's because you know, you bring in like this Calvinistic approach to life, Why are shitty things happening to you? Because fuck you, that's why. beautiful people have wonderful. Amazing lives and you suck. And that's why. And we should all get together and rage bait one another on the internet in our mom's basements. But fortunately for me, I didn't grow up in that world. and I grew out of my awkward phase, convinced the first person I I saw ever to marry me, and here we are. Rob (47:31) Worked. the interesting thing is this intersection of the incels with the manosphere with the maga ideas of masculinity. So you know if we start with the incels, pain says I want to be loved. entitlement says I'm owed access. Hatred says if I cannot be loved, someone must pay. And that's kind of the incel perspective. I mean, under it all, it's just they want to be loved, they want what everyone wants. they want to feel wanted and secure and safe. and then they end up going this route toward hatred. the MAGA world says, you know, your country was taken from you. the manosphere says your women have been taken from you. And then the incel says that. your sexual destiny was stolen before you were even born. and that intersection that comes in there is is a dangerous spot and there's no doubt about it. Now the wound though is, I as reasonable adults who have a certain amount of empathy, we can empathize with a wound that is usually inflicted at a point in these people's lives, these men's lives, young men's lives, when they're very vulnerable, that was supported by and encouraged by COVID. that, the normal skill set that usually occurs in teenage years, which is sort of shared suffering. you watch other people embarrass themselves you hear your friends talk about the things they're worried about. it normalizes it and you can accomplish some sense of twinship that I am more similar to than dissimilar from others. see people who are, not as attractive as you think they are or should be, that they they find, relationships and all that. Like David. I mean, you st yeah, you like like David, you you you know, I'm telling you guys, David (49:14) This is our podcast. Rob (49:19) No, David's a beautiful man. yeah, he he's a he's he's he's tr right. Shrek and the donkey combined is really what David looks like. yeah, that'll do, donkey. and then you add in this internet world, in which again the social media shows people living an incredibly aesthetic life. And David (49:20) Ogre an ogre like Shrek. Imagine Shrek. Yeah, donkey. Rob (49:41) the algorithms take these young men down paths and feed them this information, day in and day out. And it's comforting to them. It's comforting to find a community, it's comforting to find an explanation in which they're not to blame. Now, the problem with coming to feel like you're not to blame and I love the Calvinistic approach, that the cards were dealt to you before you were born. It's not your fault. And there's nothing you can do about it. And that's the dangerous part. There's nothing you can do about it. because there is. There really is. know, I I ⁓ Yes. David (50:13) Well that's and that's the cultish piece to it, right? It's what it is is it's great marketing. it's identifying a population that's vulnerable, it's monetizing it through the attention it's not just monetization. think that's a big piece of it is the with social media, it's More eyes on, it's more clicks, it's more time spent looking at stuff. But then from the MAGA world, it's just more supporters, MAGA's never been shy to populations that were otherwise uncatered to. there's this joke from 30 Rock, which aged terribly as a show. I still love it. But he was giving a eulogy for the CEO of GE and he said one of the greatest things that this guy came up with was finding a population that he could sell more light bulbs to those who were asleep. and so there was a monster under every bed, there was a danger in every closet and you know, then was born the night light. And I think what MAGA has been really, really good at was catering to populations that no other political entity has ever wanted to chase incels, the white nationalists, ⁓ neo Nazis, I mean, they cater to these ideas not necessarily because the people who Rob (51:23) Yeah. We all absolutely. David (51:32) are in charge like those ideas per se to start with, it was because these were untop populations. These are populations that were not getting was the jazz music of the political world. Nobody wants to fucking hear it. They don't want to hear notes played Rob (51:39) Yes. they did that. no Yaz flute. David (51:49) There you go. now you have a population who nobody was paying attention to and now they're catering to it. Problem is ten years later, those people are starting to become in charge and now the rest of us have to suffer through Andrew Tate's whatever the fuck. Rob (51:55) And the way they No no doubt. Well, and and the way they did that is they became very good at giving private injury a public enemy. And so they took these aggrieved groups that the rest of us felt were truly deplorable, the deplorables, and they found what the private injury was. And then they gave them a ready-made public enemy that tied into MAGA. So MAGA says, you're not failing, you're being replaced. MAGA says, you're not lonely, you're being oppressed, you're not underdeveloped, you're a warrior in exile. you don't need therapy, you need dominance, and that's seductive. it's bullshit, but it's therapeutically elegant bullshit. David (52:42) You need grass fed beef and sauerkraut. Rob (52:44) God, I bet those meetings smell terrible. David (52:45) Nothing nothing will get you a lady sulfur burps. That's all women want. They want a manly man smelling like methane. Yeah, I guess I can understand how somebody might go down that rabbit hole, especially when you're brought into the fold at a at a young, awkward age, tucked penis and all. But what I can't excuse Is that these are still choices. And this is the most psychiatric thing I think I've ever said on the show, the worldview that we all hold is one that we and I do this all the time. I do this myself, sometimes I have to check myself on it. But our belief system is the one that we are making. nowhere is a written in stone. That what we think we have to do, has to be done. there's a reason that there are thousands of religions, there's a reason that there are different political viewpoints, it's because we take what's in front of us, we try to make sense of it in the way that it works for our own understanding, and then we say, This is the reality that we have. And the truth is, that's our version of reality. the choices that we make is everything. we have the ability to choose something different. We just go with what appears to create the least amount of discontent in our own lives at that moment in time. But it's not the only thing we can do. We always have choices. And so I don't want to excuse that behavior by saying, Well, I get it. No, I do get it. I get why you go down that path, but you're still choosing to go down it. You're still choosing to stay on the path. And when faced with options, and sometimes you're never faced with other options because you curate your own echo chamber in which to live so that you're not given other options. And I do think that's a problem. And it's the same problem that you and I could have, if we only view this world through one particular lens, then we're only going to see those options. We're only going to see and we're not going to take into consideration that, well, maybe the people who are in cells are suffering in so many ways. We're not going to think about that. but I want to be open to Rob (54:37) Yeah. Right. David (54:48) that reality that, well, they are suffering. But I I just I'm not gonna excuse it because it is a choice. And they are adults, some of them. And they do have the ability, yeah, some of them, but they do have the ability. Well, I mean, if you're old enough to vote, and I guess that's it, if you're gonna vote based off of this flawed perception of reality, then I want you to be open to the fact that it it may all be lies. Rob (54:56) Some of them. Well and And I imagine that, if we would follow these guys along their life path, many of them outgrow this. But having a couple of boys in that age group, the young end of that age group at least, they're great examples of the Dunning Krueger effect. they're really confident with their world views. they're really lacking in in some basic knowledge of it. So I can see how a a young man might slip down that path. And I do have empathy for them. Now, a world according to Ra moment here, which I'm very fond of, yeah, is, from my stance, and I tend to have a Jungian perspective on most things, there's two major archetypes that sort of define masculinity. It's the warrior and the father. And David (55:39) I this is a drink. Rob (55:52) One of the historic ways in which we helped our young men transition into manhood were rites of passage. And for most most of history. David (56:03) Wait, before you continue on, we have another commercial. Rob (56:06) boy. David (56:06) Yeah. Today's episode of Strength and Nation is brought to you by Robbie's Alpha Mail Academy. At Robbie's Alpha Male Academy, we teach the three pillars of masculinity. One, explain things nobody asked about. Two, never apologize. And three, refer to yourself as high value. Our graduates go on to successful careers in podcast comment sections, LinkedIn motivational posting, cryptocurrency losses. In family court, Robbie's Alpha Mill Academy, where every student graduates Magna Coomb Loudly. Rob (56:37) Yeah. and they all get a rite of passage. at any rate, rites of passage. So for most of human history, most cultures had a rite of passage. And you know, you take a boy who's, fifteen, sixteen year old range, the men of the village would take them out into the woods. they would have some trial that they had to undergo and it it did usually involve fear and physical pain. Of course, it was under the supervision of adult men who were heralding this and protecting the situation, ideally. I suppose there was probably some hazing too. a human endeavor. and once they completed that rite of passage, They had proven something to themselves, they had proven something to the men of the village, they had proven something to the village as a whole, and then they were identified as men. So, you know, traditional masculinity. Has some developmental demands. It requires discipline, sacrifice, apprenticeship, courage, responsibility, protection, self-command. And I'm not saying that men have pulled this off flawlessly throughout history. we clearly have it, but there still were these developmental things that were required. The manosphere is taking these incels. they're offering masculinity without any kind of initiation. So there's no elder, there's no community, there's no service, there's no restraint, there's no competence, there's no earned status. It's just grievance, aesthetic, and enemies. And that's not manhood, that's adolescence. maybe adolescence with a podcast microphone, but it's it's adolescence. in these poor kids really aren't receiving that kind of apprenticeship, the shepherding through that challenging transitional phase into adulthood and they're getting lost. And I do feel for the fact that a vast majority of them who would identify as incel, they're not radicalized. they might post some bullshit on the internet or whatever. but ultimately they're not gonna do harm to anyone. They're just kids who are hurting, who are lonely, and who wanna be loved. And I think we all can identify with that, without excusing the truly bad, awful behavior. David (58:39) I Disagree that it's ⁓ not yeah, no, yeah, no, I mean absolutely fuck those guys. no, fuck them, fuck those guys. And I disagree with you because I'm not taking one for the team on this. we'll post whatever you're saying. No, I disagree in some ways. Like one, I don't know that I think the traditional rites of passage, taking a boy out of the woods and Rob (58:42) Fuck those guys. David (58:59) you know circumcising him with a hot knife and then making him hunt a bear. I don't know those are necessary now to let a man be established as a man. I think it kind of goes back to what I was saying before, which is that these constructs of your reality are If you live in a culture where that was a thing, sure, that was a thing that you did. Did that actually make you a man? No, not at all. It wasn't the thing that allowed you to ascend to manhood or to adulthood. that was a thing that you did because your culture called for it. We don't have that thing, but it's not to say that the vast majority of men don't ascend to adulthood without doing that. That is something that does occur. no Rob (59:38) Because they've changed. I was demonstrating David (59:40) No, I I get that I get that, but I'm Rob (59:40) through the extreme. It's changed. David (59:43) I'm demonstrating to the reality now, which is that the rites of passage aren't anything. thing that Rob (59:49) David, you're a psychiatrist. You know damn well it's a thing. It's a psychological thing. That's as a critical as as as any kind of David (59:54) It's a s exact correct correct, but it's the ability for somebody to ascend into adulthood to understand trials and tribulation this is something that can be accomplished through good relationships with other people. it can be this is one of the things that I see as a psychiatrist. Rob (1:00:07) Absolutely. But but but that's the rite of passage in and of itself. it's having those opportunities. and you know, in today's world, like in my world growing up, it was when you were allowed to go out into the field and bale hay. It was allow it was when you were sent out to feed the cows by yourself for the first time. Those were the rites of passage, but it still was that transitional phase in which mentally psychologically you were making a transition from, all right, I was a boy, now I'm doing man's work and yeah, it was under supervision and you had somebody monitoring you. So I'm not I mean I just that was just demonstration ⁓ David (1:00:45) Well but it doesn't have to even be to that extreme just by having to pay your own rent. it is, but again it's not it's not well you had to you had to go out into the field and and bail hay to be able to pay it. No, it's it's it's having it's taking right it's taking on the responsibility of being an adult Rob (1:00:50) That's a rite of passage. Well no getting a job. David (1:01:03) that can happen to all of us. The problem is when we label it as, well, it has to be this big thing, I think that's where you get the incel community saying, well, I never had that. Because they're hearing the extreme examples and they're saying, but I never got that. So it must have been withheld for me. And the truth is, no, son, it doesn't have to be the extreme. the right of passage is when you become an adult and you become responsible. But when you choose not to take the responsibility and you try to give that away to other people by saying you stole from me, you're stealing my ability to be a man, you're stealing that. And that's what the manosphere is feeding into is this idea that if you didn't go out into the woods and kill a bear with a knife because you didn't have the opportunity to, somebody stole that rite of passage. and the honest to goodness thing is that no, you've you've had your rights of passage. they just may not be what you thought they would be. how many but right exactly you'll see this with patients a lot where they've lacked certain experiences in relationships like just having an amicable breakup that's something that not everybody has always felt like Rob (1:01:55) Well of course they're not, 'cause we don't go out and kill kill bears anymore. David (1:02:10) The best possible thing to have as a therapist with a patient was a rupture, which is where something occurs in the therapy that ultimately it's a break where it's like somebody has been let down in some way, usually the patient, usually by the therapist. You have some sort of rupture. it wasn't like having a bad experience with your patient was the good thing. It was the ability to repair that. It was having an honest, heartfelt Understanding apology that this person probably never had in their lives that allowed them to experience that and to then open up and gain a level of trust with another human being allowed them understand that yes, I can have this kind of relationship with other people. And that's where the value of therapy I've always seen as being. And so it's the same thing here. these boys are absolutely experiencing. Rites of passages. They're just being told that they're not. They're being told that that's not what that is. And they're believing it. And they're choosing to believe and it's not just boys, it's all humans, right? Like women also have rights of passage. go back to our previous episode. Please don't. But we never took on a woman's perspective. Because we're not women, blah blah blah. We have all our excuses and we can have our excuse. But the truth is all people, everybody, all humans have that ascendancy into adulthood. And there are rites of passage that occur. that's the important thing for us to realize is that we all have it. whether we want to identify it as being that or not is irrelevant. It's we all have that moment, those points at which we could say to ourselves, I'm an adult Rob (1:03:28) They do. They do, absolutely. David (1:03:45) and nobody gets to define really what that is, but you. The problem with the incel community is that they're being sold on this bill that it never happened for you. and I disagree. I just disagree. of course, you have something. and this goes back to the panzer and drone thing. Just because it looks impressive or was the big deal a hundred years ago. doesn't mean it's a big deal today. it's a different world that they live in. So anyway, I that's all. Rob (1:04:09) I I concur. ⁓ running long, but I just just for the record, every culture didn't have an extreme one. I didn't even mean to that. what I'm saying is is that through a bunch of mechanisms, social media, internet, changes in society, changes in family structure, that I fear that our generations who have raised these young men maybe dropped the ball a bit. and yeah I'm not saying we needed to take our kids out to kill a bear. because rights of passages change with times and with cultures. and all men and women have their rights of passages. And they still they they still do. It's just that because of economic changes David (1:04:45) All children. All child yeah. Rob (1:04:51) more kids kids aren't getting driver's license, that's a rite of passage. Kids aren't getting their first job. That's a rite of passage. there's some changes here that have altered that pathway into adulthood and it is impacting these folks. time to put it at David (1:05:05) and it doesn't have to be economic. there's some social things to it too. I mean, you look at social media, the reason that a kid might not be willing to get their driver's license now is because they don't have to leave the house to hang out with their friends, right? Like they can do it online. why would I no need to go and get a job when would require me leaving the house Rob (1:05:15) Exactly. David (1:05:20) we are a social species we need social interactions develop. the big Issue that I have with social media because it's like they're interacting. The problem is they're not interacting on a level that we're designed to do that. Is that going to change with time? Are we going to adapt and evolve? Probably. But the generations that are going through it right now are struggling because it's new. they'll figure it out, but. but the incel thing might just be a side effect of that type of socialization. before we close out this episode though, we have another advertisement. Have you been carrying around resentment for years? Want to turn minor inconveniences into core personality traits? Come work out at Robbie's Grievance Gym. Our state-of-the-art equipment includes the victim complex leg press, the blame machine, The cardio theater of self-pity and our signature class, advanced externalization. Learn why every setback you've ever experienced was caused by society, women, the government, your boss, your parents, and Mercury retrograde. Anything except you. Robbie's Grievance Gym. No accountability. Max gains. Okay. Do you have a prescription this week? Rob (1:06:30) don't. David (1:06:30) What fucking good are you if you don't have a prescription? Make something up. Jesus Christ. Rob (1:06:32) I know. David (1:06:34) Description. So for our listeners, all tens of you, and I I have to do this one myself. as you look at the news especially when it comes to politics, and you have your initial opinion. I encourage anybody to try to get the devil's advocate perspective on it. I don't mean for you to sit there and just try to change your mind necessarily because your initial reaction just might be the way that you feel about a particular topic. but because of the way that news comes out in very biased forms at this point, sometimes it's good to just hear the story from one perspective and then kind of get it from another angle and then just try to realize that it's probably somewhere in between. The way that we feel about everything is something that's kind of constructed in our own minds and so the reality might be maybe a lot more different depending on the viewpoint that you're coming from. it doesn't make it less valid. It just means it's just different. it's always helpful for me to have that, to be able to look at a a news story and try to look at it from just the different sides. think it centers me a bit more. I feel a little bit more grounded. and that's why I try to bring up the critics and the supporters for for these discussions, even if I do tend to lead on the critic side. Rob (1:07:42) All right, so my prescription is we must remind young men that women are not governmental benefits that were unfairly denied. sex is not a entitlement, a girlfriend is not a VA claim, attraction's not a constitutional amendment. David (1:07:57) Nice. There you go. I like it. See you had one in there. that was it. thank you everybody for sticking around. Appreciate ya. go ahead and hit like, subscribe, leave a pleasant comment if you can on one of the streaming platforms. Rob (1:08:00) And the hopper. David (1:08:12) Try to get our word out. We did update our website. I think there's a couple of tweaks we need to make to make it better, but it is it is updated. It's actually pretty cool. Robbie, don't know if you've been to the website, but it's pretty the new one's pretty cool. I am gonna announce that we did finally figure out the merch thing. we do have merchandise now. I've placed an order for most of the things to just kind of check on the quality. so I should get those next week. everyone's awareness, everything is made to order. So once you order it, it's gonna take, you know, a week or two unfortunately to get there. we're not doing a mass, hundred and fifty of each thing, because I don't think that we'll sell a hundred and fifty of anything maybe not even 150 of everything combined, but we just want to make sure you had some merch out there. it's all pretty cool. If anybody has any ideas on stuff they'd like to see. I do want to say that our I'm anti-Nazi, anti-rape, anti-murder, call me old fashioned shirt is actually doing all right. So I'm looking forward to see how that actually turns out. But go our website, strengthenation.com, if you scroll down the merch is right there or if you click on the menu, go to merch and you'll see our stuff and you can order from a third party company but they make it for us and send it out. So That was it. Anything else, Robbie? Rob (1:09:23) Got nothing. David (1:09:24) All right. then cue up that music and we are out. But before we go, are compliments becoming less effective? Do you need stronger and stronger doses of attention just to feel normal? Ask your doctor about validation plus. plus is for adults suffering from chronic attention deficiency. Common symptoms include posting opinions online. Checking notifications repeatedly. Starting podcasts. Reading comments about yourself. Pretending you don't read comments about yourself. don't validation plus if you're comfortable being ignored. Validation plus because silence is violence.