The People You're Supposed to Hate with Wesley Warshawer

David (00:00) How much do we actually know about the people we are supposed to hate? Leslie Warshower spent eighteen months outside his Silicon Valley bubble getting to know people whose politics didn't match his own. On this episode, he joins us to talk about what surprised him, what we assume about each other, and whether knowing somebody changes how we argue. Also, apparently biscuits can help, which is a political strategy I can get behind. This is Shrink the Nation. Let's go. David (01:07) All right. Hey, welcome back to Shrink the Nation. I'm David. I am a board certified psychiatrist with over twenty years in the military. And as you could probably tell if you can see me, I'm sitting in a hotel room, so I unfortunately just have a monster energy drink, which could be good or bad, rather than getting a little bit loosey goosey later in the show. I might be a little bit more amped up. So look for that. Robby (01:28) Excellent. Hey, it's Rob. I've got thirty years military experience, sports certified psychiatrist, twenty seven ish years in the field. and I'm actually drinking nothing. So I've got nothing to report. David (01:41) No more cat watering incidents through the rest of the show. Is that what we're trying to do? Robby (01:45) the cat has been thoroughly taken care of, at least for now. And that's not a euphemism, folks. It's a legit cat. David (01:50) you didn't Kristi Noem this? Robby (01:52) I did not. David (01:52) Just get a dog, Robby. right. So joining us today is Wesley Warshower. So Wesley writes about travel and connection and has spent eighteen months living in communities from North Dakota down to Mississippi to get beyond his Silicon Valley bubble. And we're gonna seeing where the conversation takes us. Wesley, welcome. Wesley Warshawer (02:10) Thank you so much. Happy to join two very jacked avatars. David (02:15) Totally jacked. That's all we do. We do this in the gym. Wesley Warshawer (02:15) people. Looking good. David (02:18) let's start off in Bend, Oregon, where there was a gunman who killed three children and a teacher at Silver Rail Elementary. Caleb Giamanco, carpenter and father, did intervene and killed the attacker before he could hurt more people. Now, police credit him with saving lives, and there was an interview with him where he also spoke about the people that he could not save. he credited a surviving teacher who had wrestled the gunman to give him that opportunity to intervene. So he describes himself as an independent and he does not want any political finger pointing, which we're not gonna do. I'll throw it out to the either one of you. what were your thoughts just kind of looking at this story as far as this guy being labeled a hero but then being devastated by it. Robby (03:00) I actually in thinking about having Wesley on, my first thought about this story was our tendency to categorize, that we so quickly categorize this individual. And it made me wonder about the categories that you took with you when you left Silicon Valley, you headed out into the hinterlands. I'm sure you were carrying categories for the people that you were gonna interact with. and I'm wondering how those categories that you brought with you, how it ended up playing out for you. Wesley Warshawer (03:29) Yeah, for me, I use this framework of the bubble and I'll just explain the epiphany moment that led to that. I was 18 years old, like the first couple weeks of college, and I'm trying to meet new people and there's this event to meet new people and it was a volleyball event, something. I had never played volleyball. And I go to this event and I get paired with someone and he's a foreign exchange student from Japan. And so we're playing volleyball together. This is in Tucson, Arizona, going to the University of Arizona. And we play with some volleyball. We sit down, we're drinking some water, just in silence. And he says, hey, can I ask you a question about America? like, yeah, of course. And he says, What's this thing called Halloween? And I kind of laughed and I was like, huh, like I've never explained Halloween before. And so I'm kind of trying to figure out how to explain, well, it's a day, it's not really religious, it's not really cultural. It's the first time articulating this. so I'm trying to explain it, and then we kind of stopped talking for a sec, and then I had just heard a Halloween joke. And so I said, Hey, speaking of Halloween, you want to hear Joe? He goes, Yeah. I'm like, okay, so knock knock. And he's just quiet, just completely quiet. Ten seconds go by, and he says, I don't understand this joke. And it was this incredible epiphany moment about it was not a language problem. It was we just exist in very different bubbles. Like, why would I expect him to know this paradigm of a knock-knock joke? And I remember just being 18, first couple weeks of college, and thinking, We are all in a bubble. And it's not an insult. I'm not insulting you. I'm not insulting myself by admitting that I'm in a bubble. It's just how we see things. And he could have studied English better. he could have paid more attention in class. He would have never known what that was because it's just a paradigm he doesn't know. And so I really see things in terms of bubbles. And so I'm in a bubble, you're in a bubble. And what interests me most is when two bubbles come together, is the communication? How do we respond when two bubbles scrape next to each other or smash into each other? what's the communication like? What's the behavior in which these two bubbles are clashing? And I really felt this so strongly. I I laughed at myself. why would I expect this Japanese student to know paradigm? And so as I think about these stories and the political discussions we're going to talk about, I really think of it as there's different bubbles that we're in. There's no moral element to it. It's not ethical in nature. It's just how we grew up and how we see things, Robby (05:53) God, tell me you helped this guy out and explained the knockout joke to him. Wesley Warshawer (05:57) I realize how difficult it is to articulate some of these things. Like 18 years old, like, what is a knock-knock joke? Well, I say knock knock, and then you say who's there, and then there's a punchline. And same thing, Halloween. it's very funny to articulate something that is so ingrained, it's so normal to you. it's very difficult actually to articulate something that's just such common knowledge. Robby (06:20) You know what, I'd probably if I could go back and talk to your eighteen year old self, I'd explain to you that knock-dock jokes are usually plays on language. So using a knock knock joke with a non-English speaker, you David (06:31) Yeah. Robby (06:32) you could have done a better job there, buddy. You could've you could have really selected a better joke. Uh Wesley Warshawer (06:37) Yeah. Robby (06:38) now I'm also curious what was the punchline to the joke? David (06:41) Yeah. I'm gonna guess Boo Hoo. Was it Boo Hoo? Wesley Warshawer (06:45) It wasn't. It's knock knock. David (06:46) Oh. Who's there? Wesley Warshawer (06:48) Frank. Robby (06:48) Frank Who? Wesley Warshawer (06:49) Frankenstein. It's not a good joke. It's not. Robby (06:52) It's not a good joke. It's not a good joke. So speaking in terms of this frame, and I do like how you have presented it. Now, David and I, coming from a psychotherapy background, there's this concept of inner subjectivity that when you're sitting with another human, they have their frame, you have your frame. And as much as you've been trained to be a blank slate, if you will. you are bringing a set of circumstances, experiences, an understanding of the world into that room that has an impact on the other persons, on your understanding of them and ultimately of their understanding of themselves. And, I think of this poor guy who has been through an incredibly traumatic experience. He rose to the occasion, he intervened. But, I want to talk about bubbles clashing. He is now his own bubble with these perspectives, these other bubbles, whether it be maybe a right leaning bubble or a left leaning bubble. And in order to make him legible, what we're trying to do put him in the bubble of a hero. You're a hero now. Whatever that means to us, whatever that means to anyone, and here he has to deal with it. And we certainly want to recognize his bravery, what he did, that he was Johnny on the spot and rose to the occasion, saved some lives, but we're sort of forcing a frame on this guy. and I have to hand it to him. he's sort of pushing back on it. Wesley Warshawer (08:15) Yeah. I've heard people on the left and right talk about this issue, and it's kinda interesting. the right bubble is saying this is a heroic person who was able to rise to the occasion, like you said, and because he knew how to use a gun, he was able to save the day. And I've heard people on the left say, the bad guy had a gun too. So if we would have had more gun control or something like that, then they wouldn't have had a gun and he wouldn't have needed to be a hero. But one thing that I do find and I'd love to hear what both of you think, actually do feel that both kind of left and right are able to recognize a brave act when they see it. so I've been touched in a way that, both sides are looking at this from different bubbles, different perspectives for sure. But can unite on the fact that it was a brave thing to do. Robby (08:58) There are shared elements that do seem to cross through all of these different frames of reference. and the ability to recognize a brave act. David (09:08) the thing that I found particularly interesting about this, and I'm glad Wesley brought up this shared viewpoint of him being a hero, because I think one of the more interesting pieces of this article is the fact that they are leaving him alone in trying to make him put himself into one of these camps because he flat out said, don't want this to become political. that's the piece of this that I find really fascinating is that we have so many stories of school shootings that we don't end up having this particular piece of it, where there is really a tragic outcome. But it's not as bad as it could have been because of somebody intervening. that I think it says a lot about our country that we're almost not sure how to handle that. we're like, well, do we get mad that there's too many guns, or do we tout that man, we need more guns and more training and all this stuff? and when you pull it back and you look this guy Caleb. God, what a horrendous, scary, tragic thing because the shooter was like a 16-year-old. in the act of saving many, many lives, he also took a life of a child. there's still that tragedy and that difficult thing for him to process through. and if anything, I'm kind of impressed that. He's getting the space to not be told like, Well, pick a side dude, Pro Gon or ProGon Control. Robby (10:22) in pulling this backwards into the potential lenses that we do tend to place this in, I'm thinking We, and when I say we, all all sides are gonna come at this with a preconceived notion. And while we can recognize heroism that this man acted and the as awful as it must have been to be put in a position to take the life of a kid, that he intervened. however, there are some well delineated stances on gun control and these ancillary questions are where we tend to take these things and someone who is maybe say on the left pro gun control one could s anticipate that being a question that might be brought up. I think he actually took a really intelligent, thoughtful stance in saying look, I'm not gonna play into that. I'm not political. this isn't political. David (11:19) another piece that I find just fascinating is that even as we're trying to break down this idea of the left and the right on a topic like this, you kinda automatically just jump to this conclusion that if you're on the left then you're just against guns or something, and if you're on the right, then you're pro gun. when gosh the reality is probably far, far different than that. Being on the left and being pro gun control or smart gun policies or whatever doesn't mean that you hate guns. And being for people's ability to carry firearms doesn't mean that you are for them inalienable access to everything either. but that's what I think is really fascinating is that you just jump to that automatically in trying to describe the left and the right, maybe it says a lot more about how we're painting that picture of who the left is and who the right is when the thing closer to reality, is much more nuanced. And Wesley, I'm guessing that your experience in those 18 months. show that to you a little bit. Wesley Warshawer (12:11) Yeah, I think Americans really put each other in boxes pretty unfairly. And actually I think they put themselves in boxes. I'm from Southern Arizona, close to the border, and I was living in Silicon Valley, total data nerd, which is a very particular bubble it's very affluent, it's diverse, it's tech heavy, highly educated, wealthy, liberal. And I spent 18 months driving through rural America. I was working remotely, but just starting in Bismarck, North Dakota, ended in Biloxi, Mississippi. people put each other in boxes in a way that I think is pretty counter-productive. I remember going to this barbecue shop in Alabama that I had read about. And I walk in and I start talking to this guy, and he's very friendly. And I told him, I'm so excited to be here. He said, Yeah, this is my place. We're chatting. And he just stops the conversation suddenly and is like, Wait a minute, where's that accent from? Which of course I thought was funny because I thought he was the one with the accent. And uh I said, you know, I'm working in California right now. And he said, California? Whoa. Well, you can eat here if you want, but just don't bring that California socialism over here. And I remember thinking, like, you learned one data point about me, and you think I know my politics or about what I think about socialism. it was very shocking, and Californians, they do this all the time. I told people I'm having such a great time in the Dakotas. Really? Why? what's there? putting each other in in boxes. And so I totally agree with your point. It's like we learned one thing about someone and we think we just totally understand them as people. I found that people's voting habits, their beliefs were not so predictable. I remember I was in Indiana and I was talking to some older lady and she was talking about She's been going to this same church for 70 years. She said, Yeah, you know, it's in a small town of 500 people, Robby (14:01) Yeah. Wesley Warshawer (14:02) and we just had a vote to decide if we would agree with having a gay pastor. And so I I assumed, we're in a small town, Indiana, 500 people. I would assume they would vote no. And she's like, Yeah, we voted yes. And I was just like, Whoa, and so there's all these things, we're just putting each other in boxes. We think it's so easy, but People are complicated, communities are different, and yeah, I definitely don't want to judge someone based on knowing one or two facts about them. Robby (14:26) So I have to ask, how did the engagement with the barbecue guy end up progressing? Wesley Warshawer (14:32) So when he said, Don't you bring that California socialism over here, looked at him and I said, All right, I won't. And then we both started laughing. And then I said, What should I order here? And then we completely moved past it. Robby (14:43) I live in a a rural area that mirrors what you've just described, it depends on the type of engagement and for the most part some of the things that we find that are most divisive, as it turns out they just don't come up when you're at Walmart. It's just not a thing, you don't immediately jump to these divisive things and you engage on a level that is much more human. it kind of naturally, as long as you're not starting out from that divisive stance, you kind of naturally find the points of of engagement, the points of similarity, where you both have a natural agreement and it is really not a challenge I guess and when I watch say national news it paints a picture that is much more red blue than the reality in which is probably way more purple than what we give it credit. Wesley Warshawer (15:35) And both of you have used this term paint a picture. and I love that. One of the things that I would always do when I was, coming from Silicon Valley, trying to test this theory. I'm a data person. Trying to test this hypothesis of America is divided. I hear it on the news, that's the thesis presented. I want to test that. And so I I ask people questions, you know, when it came up, like, what do you think about Trump or Biden? What do you think about building a wall? And when I asked very specific questions like that, I did see that the answers that people in rural Missouri are giving versus Silicon Valley, of course, are different. And I think people look at that and say, aha, 50% of Americans have a favorable opinion towards Obamacare, 50% don't. That's division, right? 50-50. But I started changing my questions a bit over time. instead of saying, Do you like a wall, yes or no? of giving them that binary option, I would give them a blank canvas. And I would ask a question differently. I would say, paint me a picture of what you think a fair and just immigration policy looks like. Paint me a picture of what you think a good healthcare system would look like. I love that phrase because it gives people total optionality to describe what they want, to paint instead of giving them a binary, I was so happy that the pictures that they were painting were something that a Californian would generally agree with. And so I think sometimes when we put ourselves in boxes, when we give ourselves only binary options, we look way more divided than we actually are than when you give two different people a blank canvas and say, Tell me what you think good system looks like. So I finished my journey much more optimistic about the nation and people than when I started. Robby (17:09) I'm also incredibly curious as to what drives a man to want to go to Biloxi, Mississippi. I'm in North Dakota. You know what? Next stop, Biloxi, Mississippi. Wesley Warshawer (17:20) Well, the genesis of this was I was living in Silicon Valley. This was 2017, after the election. I'm a data person. I love numbers. I think in numbers. I remember reading this poll of Americans, and it said 50% approximately of Americans voted for Donald Trump. 50% of Americans live in a house with a gun. And a third of Americans believe that the Adam and Eve story is historic truth. I remember feeling very not shocked by that, I kind of knew the numbers, but I was shocked at how different that bubble was from the bubble I was living in. And again, math statistics person, I thought, huh, fifty percent of the people that I'm meeting on a daily basis at the grocery store, at work, are they Trump voters? Do they live in a house with a gun? And I quickly just realized, of course not, not even close. And so I really felt disconnected. Like, here are these statistics about the United States, and that just didn't match my existence. And I had lived a few years abroad before that, and really thought of myself as a person who likes to understand people and cultures. And here I was not understanding my own. And so I felt shameful. I felt embarrassed by that. And so that simmered in my mind for a couple of years. And then 2020, COVID happens, my job becomes remote. And I say, like, this is the time. This is my shot. And so I didn't have to be in California anymore, no longer anchored. I could work remotely. So I got rid of my apartments. I sold my stuff, packed up my car. I looked up online what city of over a hundred thousand people has the highest percentage of Trump voters? And at that time it was Bismarck, North Dakota, and so away I went. Robby (18:59) Wow. Wesley Warshawer (19:00) Ha ha ha Robby (19:00) you know, I'm gonna hand it to you. I think many people living in their bubble, would hear those statistics and their gut instinct would be, How could that many people be wrong? how could that many people believe something like that? it's a curious response to me that your instinct was I I wanna go understand these people. I wanna understand the culture and my culture even framing it as this is my culture. because, at on a microscopic level, your culture was Silicon Valley, was the folks you were around, was your bubble. but yeah, truthfully, across the nation, our culture is is all of it. It's not just the one little slivers or the little islands of homogeneity, or at least homogeneity and belief. so Bismarck, huh? What time of year were you in Bismarck? Wesley Warshawer (19:49) I was in a good time. It was May. That's when I got there. Robby (19:51) Okay. Yeah, way different in January and February. Wesley Warshawer (19:54) yeah, for me it wasn't a political thing. I'm not there to evangelize. My parents come from different political parties. I never thought much about Democrats are good, Republicans are good. People in my family, we have some people that are vegetarian hipsters, we have some business people, who are startup people and conservatives. we all got along. I never felt that vitriol, which I think many people in the Bay Area do have a vitriol towards people of other political stripes. So I never felt it like that. It wasn't to evangelize, but it was definitely to just yeah, like I felt a little bit embarrassed with myself that I was so out of touch with this is what the Americans think, here's the stats, and just realizing like I am totally disconnected from that. Robby (20:37) And it's interesting, I guess, that from a a bubble standpoint that if we traced yours back, you started in an environment that was heterogeneous, that had different political views, it had different stances, it puts you in a unique position to actually approach what you did that many people don't have. I don't know the statistics on this, but I would imagine more. nuclear families than not have a certain homogeneity that does lead us down a path where the other results in a certain sense of vitriol. David (21:11) if you try to paint somebody into a box if we're painting stuff as Wesley pointed out, if you were to just take people off the street and ask them very politically charged questions with two possible answers, you are going to come away from that interaction with those people that is much different than what the reality of their true thought process and beliefs are. that does say a lot about our political system, because it isn't necessarily that Americans are Constantly going, at each other. our political system is adversarial in such a way that it benefits them have that perspective, to take sides and as we always talk about, limit the nuance that goes into the answers and the questions. So rather than saying, should we build a wall, asking what's a good policy in your mind for managing immigration? those are not the same question, and they're definitely not going to lead to the same answer. But as you point out, it you're you're certainly gonna get different people from different walks of life, with probably much more similar responses than do we build the wall? Robby (22:10) Well, if you ask a binary question, you're gonna walk away with an answer that is binary. you've given them zeros and ones. So you're gonna walk away with a zero or a one and the perception will be binary. David (22:23) that's really what our political system wants, though, They want to divide. Because as we break down who we are as individuals, I saw this a lot in Japan when I was stationed there. the nature of Navy guys going out and drinking. But if you go out to a bar in Japan just off a Navy base, there's gonna be some roughhousing, right? and if there happens to be a bunch of Marines in there, you might find that the Navy guys start sticking up for the Navy guys and the Marines start sticking up for the Marines, but then a civilian gets involved and all of a sudden it's the Navy and the Marines sticking up for the military guys. we look for ways that we can identify within that group around us. And what I find fascinating about us as people, or at the very least the military people, was we were really quick to be inclusive and really, really quick to be exclusive Wesley Warshawer (23:08) Super interesting. you mentioned being abroad. after my 18 months in the United States, I decided to continue the digital nomading abroad for three more years. so I was in Latin America and in Africa working remotely. And it sounds so strange to say, but by leaving the United States, I actually feel like I understand it a little bit better. people will hear, that message that I just said of we're actually pretty aligned about immigration and healthcare and much more than these binary polls show. People think, well, yeah, of course. everyone thinks that. that's so obvious. And I don't know if you had the same experience, but when I was abroad, I remember a lot of countries having discussions that were much more polarized, much more deeply contested than conversations we were having in America. And I think Americans take that for granted, just say, well, yeah, of course, everyone kind of agrees once you, break down the political and the tribalism. I actually don't think that's true. I think that's something very special about the United States. I just happened to be just total coincidence. I was working remotely in Uganda when they passed a law to execute all gay people. And I remember I was talking to people on the street, like, what do you guys think about this? And there were people who were like, Yeah, this is incredible. This is such a great New law and other people were like, no, this is terrible and this is just murder. that is a serious division. people do not agree on kind of the fundamental ethics or morals. I remember being in Morocco and talking to my driver, who was a super nice guy, he was taking me to this place I wanted to go, and he just kind of was like, I haven't really decided if women are property or not. I was like, Whoa. Robby (24:43) Yeah. Wesley Warshawer (24:45) And so I I think Americans don't take for granted how actually uniform, how unified our moral code actually is. Yes, there's some extremes on the left and the right. I don't mean that, but just generally, despite all the political toxicity, like we actually do have kind of a fundamental culture of values. And I think that's a very special thing that unless you leave the United States, it's hard to recognize. Robby (25:09) Yeah, I concur. I've spent a lot of time overseas. Now not places that I would recommend to vacation in, but it is always an interesting experience to be set apart from the states and the effect it has on those of us who are still together in those places and the divisions that prevail stateside. do seem to disappear. the extreme example is gonna be war. I cannot remember any of my wartime experiences debating politics. we just didn't care. that wasn't it. What unified us was something else. there's a psychological element here in which our political parties play into it's the nature of people. we tend like to tribe up, we like simplicity in our options, and clarity. what you did was went out and actually disrupted clarity. you got into the messiness That turned out to be lovely. It turned out to be a good experience where you found that, people were more similar than dissimilar. but in the details of all these varying opinions, it creates a noise that we naturally just askew. We don't like it. We like clarity, we like left-right options, we like blacks and whites. it is very much a part of our to like those things. I give you credit for going out and looking for the shades of gray. Wesley Warshawer (26:31) Yeah, it's weird. you can diagnose me here, but it annoys me when people are talking about, we're on the brink of civil war here. It annoys me in the sense of have you ever been to a place that really is on the brink of civil war? it doesn't feel like this. where people say, I just cannot get along with someone from, Mississippi. They're just so different. I just feel like Have you been to a place where really their neighbors totally are different? Because those countries do exist. And so it frustrates me in a way that maybe I shouldn't be triggered in that way, but kind of annoys me now that people don't appreciate or at least have some perspective of actually how incredible the United States is and how uniform maybe not our politics are, but the layer below. Think it's actually quite impressive. United States is as big as a continent. It's as big as all of Europe. And if you think about, Portugal and Spain, they live right next to each other and they really have histories and thousands of years of conflict. If you take someone from Spain and someone from Estonia, whatever that delta is, that's the same as California to Florida. Actually probably even less. And think about how much we have in common. And so I just think that perspective is really important to have. Robby (27:38) Yeah, and don't worry, we diagnose everyone. So um uh David (27:41) that will be at the end of the show. Wesley Warshawer (27:40) Thank you. Robby (27:42) Yeah, I s a after after you log off we will talk diagnosis. Wesley Warshawer (27:43) Thank you. uh David (27:47) That's when the shit talking really happens is once you've once you've settled your piece. Robby (27:49) Right, exactly. Wesley Warshawer (27:52) Yeah. David (27:53) No, I think I think having the experience, I think Robby and I have both been to a lot of countries for various reasons. I can't even remember the count. I mean thirty or forty plus. I don't remember at this point. But yeah, it's certainly very different. and I think what you describe is actually really interesting because your perspective is what I think is really similar to if you've ever read the book by Jonathan Heidt, The Righteous Mind, it as you read it, you almost get a sense of smugness from him as he's looking at the left and the right and kind of breaking down the ways that they separate themselves out. honestly, we've talked about this book before, in that I imagine it would be. completely different thing to right now. And so if Jonathan Hyde is listening to us, which I doubt he is, get us an updated copy of The Righteous Mind, man. I wanna know. Robby (28:34) for our tens of listeners, in this book, he looked at five elements of personality that seem to be relatively enduring across cultures, across countries, et cetera, and found that these political leanings were more associated with these personality traits, where you scored on a personality scale. predicted where you would score or where you fell out from a political standpoint. David (28:59) but what I think is kinda interesting about being annoyed when people are really struggling with that. I couldn't talk to somebody who's in Mississippi. there's some irony to it because that's the same thing that somebody in Mississippi might be saying about somebody in California. the and the reality is Obviously much more nuanced than that. And it is predicated off of grouping that we make for ourselves or for each other to just better understand the other and it's very natural but it doesn't make it right that's the thing that we talk lot on this show trying to understand the perspective of everybody Why do they feel that way? why do they think that if you're from California, you couldn't possibly have a good conversation with somebody from Mississippi and vice versa? Robby (29:40) and at the same time they will. If they're put in the situation, they will have a good conversation with someone from Mississippi. it's the lack of opportunity. So I was in Iraq during the height of the sectarian violence. I saw what a civil war looks like. I saw how neighbors tore themselves apart, killed one another. I agree with you when I hear people referencing that we're on the verge of a civil war or even encouraging it. or even making reference to a national divorce. irritates me, does not quite cover what it makes me feel. it's that human desire to find a simple solution. And the simple solution is I don't want to be around people who have a differing opinion from me, but it is a very limited subset of what makes us American. and I loved how you phrased it, the layer under that layer, the layer that we all actually share. and somehow we forget that and we focus on the differences, which might be uniquely human as well. I guess we've been killing each other for I don't know, time immemorial. I don't know if we're gonna stop. Wesley Warshawer (30:52) Reading this stat, years ago, but it was something about how much federal income tax that Californians pay that go to Mississippi and Alabama. California is richer, so a lot of federal tax that Californians pay ends up getting funneled to people and programs in the Deep South. And I remember being in California, I'm not a Californian, I'm from Arizona, but I remember talking to people and Largely no one really complained about that. yeah, we're Robby (31:17) Yeah. Wesley Warshawer (31:18) we're richer. And you know, maybe they say some political sassy comment or something, but in general it was all like, yeah, like we get it. But I know in Europe when Germans have to be taxed by the EU to go to the Greeks, it's a huge thing. They talk about it, they protest about it. And the reason is because Germans don't fully identify with the Greeks. They don't speak the same language, they don't have the same religion, they don't have the same culture, they don't have the same history. And the United States is approximately the same size and population as Europe. And so when people say, I can't believe like people in Missouri are so strange and I'm thinking, seriously? how incredible is it that I can get in my car in California and drive for 20 hours. And generally, people, we speak the same language, we have approximately the same culture, we identify with the same history. This is an unbelievable feature of the United States. Do that in Europe. Like, that's impossible. w when people complain about that, I'm just like, this is an unbelievable feature. virtue and and feature of the United States that people kinda either gloss over or just minimize. Robby (32:26) th this David (32:26) Okay. Robby (32:27) might be a touch of a non sequitur, but I just had a thought. so in your travels, I am curious what impact you think self-selection ended up playing a role. And in other words, so you walked away with a feeling that people are more similar than dissimilar, that there is a core level of connection that we all share, a culture we share, a set of values that we generally share. I'm curious though the folks that would engage with you, maybe that was a self selected population and you didn't see the ones that would have like convinced you that, God, they are different. they they're not normal. David (33:04) right? Robby (33:04) There's always that guy. Because their willingness to engage with you, to have these conversations, a and i I'm curious, did you run into people who just you couldn't connect with? Wesley Warshawer (33:14) A lot of people ask me that when I talk about my journey. It's like, How did you talk to these b wow, you must be so good at have it's like you go to a place, I'm in rural wherever, and I sit at some restaurant and they say, what do you want to eat or whatever? It's like, Hey, I'm not from around here. What do you think I should order here? And then they say, you should get this and then I say, okay, we talk a little bit, they come back, bring some drinks or water or whatever, and then so I yeah, I'm new around here. What do you think I should do this weekend? Never been here. what are the cool things to do? And then you ask again later, hey, what do you think about living here? I think it's a really cool place, but what is it like to live here? People want to tell you about where they're from. They want to tell you about their communities, where their kids go to school, what they like about it. And when you just start chatting with people, I have no agenda. I just want to know, this town seems pretty cool. What do you think about it? I thought people overwhelmingly wanted to talk. I can barely even think of people who didn't want to engage. I would join a gym and I'm at the gym, it's like, hey, can you hand me the weight or where are you from? You know, I'm not from around here. I was playing basketball at some place in Bismarck and someone said, Hey, there's a fundraiser at the zoo. should go check it out. Went to a fundraiser at the zoo, start talking to people. I'm sure there is some sort of selection bias in that way, but there was very few people that didn't want to engage and talk with me. And I think again, we put up barriers and walls in our own head, it's gonna be so hard to break through that wall and get a conversation going. No way. It's very easy if you just ask people and be honest. Hey, I'm new here, What should I do weekend? and people wanted to talk and were excited to share the virtues of their hometown. Someone's interested. it was much easier than what people say or people think. David (34:58) Wesley, do you think that your experience would have been different had you been black or another race or a woman? Wesley Warshawer (35:04) Probably. I don't know I'm sure it was. David (35:06) I mean you you you haven't you haven't lived in any of those lives that I'm aware of, right? but obviously I think having your perspective is all you can really have. and I'm not sure with Bismarck, is there a large African American population? Is there a a large Middle Eastern population, do you think that experience would have been different had you been different? Wesley Warshawer (35:25) So I'll tell this quick story. I remember when I was going to Bismarck, I'm still working remotely. I messaged one of my coworkers who's a friend of mine, and I said, Hey, I'm in Bismarck today, like this is so fun. And she said something like, well, that's really cool for you, but I wouldn't be able to do such a thing. And I said, What do you mean by that? And she said, I'm a Vietnamese American and my family comes from refugees. And so that's really cool that you're having a great time in Bismarck, but I don't think they would accept a person like me. So I kind of shrugged my shoulders, like, huh? maybe you're right, I don't know. So a few days later, being the nerd that I am, I went to the main museum, the North Dakota State Museum. A third of the museum was dedicated. To the history of refugees in North Dakota and their unbelievable pride. Bismarck is named Bismarck because in the 1860s, as German ethnic farmers were being kicked out of the Russian Empire, they were refugees, and North Dakota wanted those refugees. And they lean into that. And here's the stat at least when I was there. North Dakota settled more refugees than any other state in America per capita. So here she was saying, people there, they're not gonna like me because of my refugee past. Not only was that not true, it was actually the contrary that North Dakotans lean into this history, and a third of their entire museum talked about their pride that they had for settling refugees from around the world. And so again, she's putting people in North Dakota in this box that they couldn't possibly like her or understand her because of her refugee heritage. And that just wasn't the case. I was in Fargo, There was a restaurant from Liberia, West Africa. there's a Korean company that I met a friend who works there. And so, of course this journey would be different from anyone who's doing this, but I think sometimes we put ourselves in these boxes like they're not gonna like me. And it's exactly the contrary. I had dinner with this guy who was a Chinese American while he was there, born in China, and he came to America 20 years ago. You guys probably know more about this than me. If he came to America and enlisted in the Armed forces, he could get some rushed citizenship of some type. I don't know if this program still exists, but he was talking about how he's from China, he has an accent, he's Chinese, but he served in America's military and became a citizen. And I asked him, like, hey, I think this is kind of a white state. what is it like to live here? And he just said, This is the most fantastic place. And I tell people about my military service, and they accept me, they are happy that I'm here. I have the values that they do. And he said, I said, have you ever thought about moving somewhere else? He said, No, this is my place. Just a amazing anecdote to hear. David (38:09) Yeah, I'm glad you said that. it kind of reminds me of something that I talk about a lot with attachment theory inner subjectivity. And so this idea that the shared experience between two people can really drive that experience. what it reminds me of with you is the openness that you have to those new experiences and the ability to kind of look beyond assumed external, and trying to look at those deeper layers of the people, the community that you're working with. Because I do think if you're somebody who comes across with that perspective of, well, I'm just not going to be accepted, then probably not. Or maybe not as well as you would like, because your your attitude going into it is gonna project some kind of emotion or sense that other people can pick up on. And so as you're more open to new experiences, other people are gonna be more open to you as well. I don't know that there's blanket statement you can say to anybody. like, well, just go into everything with a good attitude and everyone's gonna love you. But I do think that if you go into it with this idea of, well, everyone's gonna look at me different. Everyone's going to treat me different. well, then you're probably gonna have a a worse experience for sure. Wesley Warshawer (39:12) Yeah, I remember being in towns in the south where I was the only person that wasn't black. Everyone was very friendly and open and no one was rude to me. Everyone was kind. so I did the Fulbright Scholarship to South Korea ten years ago, which is a US State Department grant. So there's kind of an alumni network there. And I was in Oxford, Mississippi, and I just connected with someone who He's also a Fulbright and he's Kurdish and he had some one year internship or something at Old Miss. so I invited him. Hey, we're both Fulbrighters, let's grab lunch or something. And he says something that just made me laugh. he's a Kurdish person, Turkish citizenship. he says, can I just ask American this question? He's like, Yeah, I've been in America a few months. And I keep telling other Americans, I got my research grant in Mississippi. Why do so many Americans say, I'm sorry to hear that? He's like, This place is incredible. Everyone's so nice, the food is great, this is an amazing place. Why do Americans keep responding in this way? I was like, That's a really insightful point. you told a Californian, I got this grant to study in Mississippi, they probably would be like, man, Too bad it wasn't somewhere else. And here he's sitting there, like, this place is amazing. And so again, it's a total perspective thing. All these Californians who are judging Mississippi And here's some guy who's has this incredible opportunity to study what he wants to study at a great university. He's just freaking pumped. And he's telling other Americans, in his network, I'm having a great time here. And they don't understand it at all. it's perspective. It's your expectations. I feel really bad that people just don't give Mississippi a try because of whatever prejudices they have. It was just a beautiful thing to see and to hear him speak like that. Robby (40:49) I think you've got a natural ability to engage with people in a disarming kind of way. what's the question you would encourage? our tens of listeners, if they're gonna engage with someone who's different from them, what's the question you would suggest they open with? What's good to eat here? Wesley Warshawer (41:04) I mean, if you're at a new place, I just think it's like just kind of owning, I'm new here. What should I do this weekend? Seems like there's a lot of cool stuff on Google. What do you recommend? And I find people are just very excited to tell you about where they're from, what they like to do, where their kids go to school, what they love about their community. they're excited to tell you. They want to share that information. David (41:24) I think what you're describing and it's a great description, but I think also really good advice for anybody is that when you walk into somebody else's house, helping them understand that you have a willingness to participate in their culture, in what they do, versus going in and saying, I want it my way. This isn't the way that I do it. And it is disarming, not maybe intentionally disarming, but in a good way. it's pulling walls down between the two of you just saying, like, what's good here? I am new, I don't know this place, and I'm not gonna pretend to. And so I'm asking for your help versus demanding your acquiescence to my needs. that really is a perspective that people could learn and I do think would be incredibly beneficial to a lot of folks as they're traveling or just going around and and realizing, yeah, we aren't all that different. but we are different. I imagine that the cuisine that you had available to you in Bismarck was very different than the Cuisine available to you in Southern Arizona was different than the cuisine available to you in the South. But it didn't make any of it less good. It was just different. and none of it was exactly the same as in South Korea. but having that openness and sharing that openness immediately, I think puts that person in position of saying, I want to help this person, not separate them out. that is a big difference than what a lot of people do. Wesley Warshawer (42:40) Yeah. I just find people kinda make it too difficult. what I was trying to do is every place I went to, I wanted to join a gym, I wanted a favorite restaurant, I wanted a local bakery or a butcher. Those were the things and I would try to meet the same people every day or every week or whenever I and try to talk to people and I remember being at some butcher in South Dakota and I remember just saying Hey, I'm not from around here. Where do you guys get the beef here? we got a ranch over here. is it is this kinda ranching town or or farming? Sorry, I'm not really from around here. no worries. Yeah, this is actually ranching side on the other side of the state, we have more farming and and just like he's super excited. to tell you about the state that he loves and the business that he runs and And it's not this super difficult thing. It's just kind of kind of leaning in with a little curiosity just being like, that's super interesting. Yeah, like I didn't know that. David (43:27) Well, there's a genuineness to it as well, it's a curiosity and genuineness and not asking people questions that put their defenses up, but rather asking them questions to invite a shared experience. those are really critical things to help people become comfortable with outsiders. because then you're not viewing them as An outsider who's trying to take over, you're viewing them as an outsider who wants to be part of the inside. And that's a very different perspective. Robby (43:52) I guess I I do find myself curious, after getting to know these individuals, had you taken a tact or posed questions that were maybe more incendiary your skill seems to be that you cut through the superficial bubble and got to sort of the layer underneath. and could connect with people on that level. after they got to know you, I just really curious if you would have then, you know, posed the question of so are we building this wall or not? Or whatever, how they would have then responded because now they know you and if that would have even made a difference. Because I, you know, I'm I'm thinking certainly, gee we could all connect and I think you've made a just a a wonderful case that we share a common culture and a common set of values and those values are more binding than we give them credit when we start to argue about I don't know trans rights or abortion or immigration policy. we will argue the details of that ad nauseum, But after you have connected at that lower level, it make any difference? Are the arguments still the same? they entrench as quickly after the fact? In other words, would this make a lasting difference to the civility of our politics? Wesley Warshawer (45:11) Yeah, that's a super good question. I think yes. I remember learning in business school as I was training, it's really difficult to negotiate with someone else unless you really know what they want and what they think. people are surprisingly very open. Anytime I was talking to someone and it kind of started getting to politics, I would kind of say, Hey, please tell me if this is too forward or whatnot, but can I just ask you, who did you vote for? And every single person I asked that question, I'm gonna guess 50 people I've had this conversation with. they all said Trump, which I knew statistically was true. and so I said, Do you mind if I ask you another question? And and again, tell me if this is this too much or something, but do you think he's a good man? And out of this, I'm estimating 50 people, all but one said, no, he's not a good man. And when I was feeling a bit more bold, I would say, hey, if Trump, was here and he was a babysitter. would you trust him that with your kids if you had to run out for an hour or with your wife? would you trust him as a person, with the people you love and care about? Every single person except for one said no, they wouldn't trust After they've already said that they voted for him. That is an absolute revelation to my California. Friends, they don't believe it they think, if you voted for Trump, you love all of what he says. You accept and embrace the litany of moral issues with him. And thus they assume that if I go to Missouri, they're loving putting the kids in the cages. Literally, one person told me that. If you voted for Trump, you love to put kids in cages. or if you voted for Trump, then you love all of his baggage. And here I was telling them out of approximately 50 people that I talked to, only one said he was a good man. Forty-nine said he's not a good man, but he has my vote for A, B, and C other reasons. And so now I understand them a bit better. Okay, so they're not defending these other things. My California friends when they're meeting a Trump supporter for example, they're still arguing about What about the cages? What about the sexual assault? Whatever. These people have already ceded that's bad that they don't support that. And so I think by understanding what people actually think, it really does help the conversation because now I don't need to waste time talking about those things. I can talk about other issues why did they vote for him, which is really interesting. in order to have a good civil conversation, to your point. You have to understand what do they think. And so cutting through some of that really does help engage the conversation to improve the quality of the conversation. Robby (47:34) And it absolutely helps that your goal wasn't to change their perspective. Your goal wasn't to win the argument. your goal was to connect with them as humans. that makes a difference. I can see how there is another population, I suppose, that what they want to believe is that if they could present their arguments in such a way and the other side would listen to them that they would come to their side. they would change their perspective. David makes this argument all the time and I very rarely give him credit because he rarely deserves it. but David (48:04) Never. Robby (48:04) he often says that people didn't necessarily vote for what Trump stood for. They voted because of the people that disliked Trump. it was a response to those who disliked him. and that group that voted for him those people were what they voted against, not necessarily for, Trump. And I think this in a sense supports it. It wasn't that they liked him. It wasn't that they thought he was respectable. it was other issues, other things that he was the avatar for. not necessarily because they wanted, to leave their kids with him. Which I think is a good choice. I really do I can concur with them. I would not leave my children with the man. I wouldn't do that. Or my wife. Wesley Warshawer (48:45) Yeah, I know you guys don't diagnose on this show, but I'll diagnose something. I'll really speak out of turn here. But I I think that America does have problems. I think that America does have political division. my diagnosis of of why do Californians feel this way about Mississippi and Mississippi feel way about Californians is a behavioral problem. When two bubbles come together, clash in some cases, how do they respond? And I think people respond with assumptions, they respond with simplistic analysis. one of the things that I've been saying now is that ignorance is not the same as malice. When someone says something that kind of strikes you in a weird way, maybe you think it's offensive or weird or Off-putting in some way, people ascribe, if it's from the other side, a malicious intent behind it. They meant something bad. As opposed to ignorance, and I don't use that as a derogatory term, just the absence of knowing something, as opposed to, hey, maybe they said something that was just ignorant, not malicious. And so I'll give one quick example to explain what I mean by that. I was in rural Indiana, I was talking to this girl who was smart, she was educated, she was funny, she was thoughtful. And she said s something about where are you from? And I said that I was from southern Arizona. And she said, Southern Arizona? There's no way I could possibly live there. And I said, Why? What do you mean by that? And she said, I mean, isn't it just like so difficult to live in Arizona when You're trying to go to work or you're trying to go to class or something, and there's just caravans of people running through the streets. Isn't that so difficult for you? how do you handle that? And I said, Man, I've lived in Arizona for twenty plus years. I've I've never heard of anyone c having that experience. And she said, No, I've seen it on Fox News. I've seen these caravans. I said, Yeah, like I don't know, like I don't know what videos you're seeing, but I can just tell you, I went to University of Arizona Nobody could use an excuse of they couldn't get to class because there was too many people running through the campus. And she didn't believe it. And I remember months later I was at home in Tucson, Southern Arizona, and I was telling some buddies about this, and everyone was kind of laughing at her. gosh, how does she not know this? And one of my buddies, he took it too far. He said, Oh, she's so dumb, something. And then he said, she's so stupid, she's evil. And I thought, She's not evil. She's wrong. She's ignorant about what it's like to live by the border. But she's not evil. And this is why I think Americans I'm diagnosing here, please put me in my place. But I think ignorance and malice are very different. The intention behind something is important. And so I think this girl, nice girl, she'd be a great neighbor. She would take care of your kids probably if you needed her. She is ignorant to what it's like to live by the border, but she is not evil. And I think that's the problem that we're we're seeing. If you voted for this way, if you think this other thing, it's not only are you wrong, but it actually contains a moral element to it and it's actually malicious. I think that's a big problem for us. Robby (51:43) there was a study done back in the fifties where they took this boys camp and there were two groups of boys and they sort of instigated a rivalry between them. and the idea was what was going to bring them together. And they tried several things. They tried like, you know, shared meals, kumbaya stuff, shared sports events. what ultimately brought them together was a shared problem. that they both had to work together in order to solve. And in this case they manufactured a a water supply issue that the boys had to solve and they came together to solve it. I'm not wishing for this, but I've said multiple times that if there was a solution for our political strife, it is an existential war. I don't want to fight that war. I don't want to be involved in that war. I don't want to send my sons off to that war. But if there was that shared like World War Two experience, I think once again the level underneath would become much more important to us because we have this shared existential threat that we could come together. And what we end up with, and it may well be a first world problem, is that we have a skewed threat matrix. That truthfully we live a blessed life. We have a very safe existence here in the States. we have a high standard of living across the board, all states. we don't have to worry about water and food. Um we don't really have to worry about rampant crime, which leaves us free to worry about other things because there's a baseline level of worry that we're all gonna engage in all the time. like in this young lady's case, her threat matrix is completely skewed. She's imagining some foreign environment in which there are just streams of caravans that you you've gotta stop and weave around, etc. it's almost beyond her imagination that it's something other than that. and it's so different to her that it's it's threatening. And you're absolutely right. She's a fine human being, I'm sure, someone I might trust my kids with. Who knows? but her sense of the world is skewed. And maybe that is our problem. we're a victim of our own success. David (53:57) I kind of take issue just a little bit with the maybe overgeneralization of the standard is high across the board. I I imagine that there are people who do not live the wonderful first world life we're talking about across the US, everywhere. and so well I just wanna I just wanna br well Robby (54:12) Well of course not. Averages, David, averages. David (54:16) yeah, I just wanna bring that to like like we we are aware of the fact that that's not a universal truth. in our country. but I think unfortunately for people who are really struggling with food, shelter, water, they tend not to engage a whole lot in the political discourse because they're too focused on their, you know, necessities of life. not that we should overlook them or that we are, just that it kinda goes outside of the bounds of the conversation that we're having. But outside of that, I do think a lot of the bitching and moating and everything that we do politically is interestingly done by a relatively small sliver of the country. the number of people who are able to vote is like little over it's sixty percent or something like that. And then the number of people who actually do vote is even less than that. And so we have these overgeneralized ideas of what percentage of the population is actually a supporter of X or Y policy, when the numbers are much smaller. a true to life MAGA loving person is about twelve percent in the US. I think Donald Trump won the election with like twenty-two percent of the population voting in his favor. or 22 and a half or something in Kamala Harris had twenty one point nine or something, right? I'll fact check myself later on that. so it's not that half of the people believe one thing and half of the people believe another. those numbers are are really, really off. Which is good in a way. I mean it's bad in a way, because we certainly would like more civic engagement than we have. but it also means that you're not a 50-50 odd you're gonna run into somebody that just completely believes the opposite of you. it's very, very different. And then when you get into the nuance of the things that we believe and we care about, as we've been discussing, we probably most of us do sh have a a much larger package of things that we care about and share that than the things that we actually differ on. It's just a lot easier to narrow it all down to the couple of items, they're big things. but just couple of items that separate the difference between an American who votes this way and American who votes that way versus American and who just feels disenfranchised and doesn't want to vote at all, or is too young to vote, or has a felony conviction or whatever, But yeah, we do tend to be skewed because we're so focused on those few things rather than the much larger picture. and I think maybe it would help if we focus a little bit more on the bigger picture stuff. Wesley Warshawer (56:32) Absolutely agree. Totally agree. It's I hate it. I don't know if you've noticed this, but politicians will sometimes say something like, I really like this person, but we don't agree on anything. And I find that so offensive. I hear comedians say that or people talking about someone on the other side, And that is just so false. And I again, just total luck. I was a digital nomad for some time in Chile, and there happened to be an election when I was there, and the debates were starting, and one of the candidates got up there and said, Hi, my name is whatever. I am a fascist. And I remember thinking, like, whoa, like, holy. And then they gave their little speech, and then the next person got up and said, Like, I am a communist. And I was like, Whoa. And so again put things into perspective, like, okay, I know the Democrats call the Republicans fascists, and the Republicans call Democrats communists. Very few people would actually use those terminologies to describe themselves. But Chile is facing an election where it is a self-described fascist versus a self-described communist. that is some real division about how they see the world, the vision for the country. That is a big difference. it makes me think, you know, with that perspective in mind, it's like, okay, we are disagreeing about political issues, but generally the ethical compass in which we're marching towards. is approximately the same for the vast majority of people. And that's such a virtue that many countries do not have that. I think it's a beautiful thing about the country that I I hope we can begin to appreciate. Robby (58:04) I do as well. David (58:05) yeah, me too. thank you so much, Wesley, for coming on and sharing your story. we have this format that we tried to follow. Hey, it didn't work out. we got through one story and we had a lengthy conversation, Wesley Warshawer (58:13) Ha ha ha David (58:15) but I think it was you know, a a really good conversation. Hopefully people at home who are listening pick something up from it and maybe they'll try a little bit harder. to get along with people who maybe otherwise I think they wouldn't. normally what we'll do is we will have a prescription for whoever. you're welcome to give one. We'll start with Rob, then we'll head over to you Wesley and then I'll close it out with anything I can scrounge up that Rob hasn't stolen from me. Robby (58:41) Right. So in in light of this conversation, I'm gonna prescribe that our tens of listeners talk to somebody outside of their bubble. start with their home, their community, what they love about living there. you're looking for conversation, not conducting a parole hearing. ask what's good about their town, what they're proud of, where to eat. Nobody ever bonded over explain your country's voting pattern, but biscuits have crossed the ideological divide. side effects might include liking someone you were prepared to dislike. And if that happens, stay calm. you can argue later. but you'll be able to argue with someone who you know their first name. David (59:22) I like it. And I like biscuits Wesley Warshawer (59:22) That's nice. David (59:23) too. So you had me at biscuits, Robby. Robby (59:25) You had me at biscuits. Yeah. Wesley Warshawer (59:28) I guess, yeah, in the same vein of the of the bubble. I mean, I I really do think no matter where you live in the United States of America, within one hour driving, you can be in a completely different bubble. And so people have said to me, you know, that's super cool that your job went remote, but I I can't do that. Totally fair. But I would challenge anyone to that. no matter if you're in a rural community, an urban community, within one hour of where you live is a different bubble where you can learn from a different type of person. I have a friend, Every Sunday he goes to a different church. And he loves it. He meets different types of people and worships in a different way. I think once a week, all of us can be doing some event that we've never done. I had a thing where every time I was gonna go to a concert, I would go to a concert of a different genre. I have a buddy who's a finance guy and he said, I gotta get outside my bubble. He took a dance class. all of us can do this. I would prescribe, be willing to take a little bit of discomfort in order to grow and to learn. And I think no matter where you are, you can find that experience. David (1:00:28) Agreed. Here, here. All right. I'm going to prescribe that all of us take a page out of the book from the nineteen ninety-five hit single from Deep Blue Something, the One Hit Wonder, Breakfast At Tiffany's. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, go back, listen to that song, listen to the lyrics, and then go meet somebody new. I love telling that to somebody who's not old enough to know what I'm talking about, but now you're gonna have to go listen to Wesley. Robby (1:00:54) Dude, I'm old enough to know and I still don't know, so David (1:00:56) Well, then you're gonna have to go back nineteen ninety five, breakfast at Tiffany's. All right. Well Wesley, really appreciate ya being on with us. we'll have to reach out in the future and and see if you're willing to have a another conversation. do you have anything else coming up you're planning to do? It was an interesting social experiment. anything else? Wesley Warshawer (1:01:13) my job's not remote anymore, so definitely can't do as ambitious of a project as it went before. But once a week, I'm trying to do something completely new and I'm still learning, still growing, still trying to better understand myself and my community, my country. And so love to talk about these issues and I'd love to chat with you again in the future. I'll try to work out first, but next time I'll be ready. David (1:01:36) Get yourself an avatar. Just get an avatar. Make it Robby (1:01:37) uh Well I I highly David (1:01:40) easy. Robby (1:01:40) recommend Yeah, Avatar's the easy route. the other route would be steroids. So you know, you you you choose a direction and you go with it. Wesley Warshawer (1:01:48) All cheers. David (1:01:50) Awesome. Well thanks, Wesley. Wesley Warshawer (1:01:52) Thank you. Robby (1:01:53) Thank you very much. David (1:01:54) All right, Robby, what'd you think? Robby (1:01:55) interesting conversation. I'm jealous. it sounds like something that was certainly worthwhile doing. I w I wish I could be a digital nomad. I cannot. but I do think his perspective on stepping outside the bubble would might be something I could probably replicate locally. So I might give that a try. David (1:02:14) Yeah, I'm actually I'm a little surprised. I didn't know the things that I didn't know that about Bismarck. and so I think, you know, some of his perspective I think is really positive, which is good. And I and I think he did kind of lay out some of the tricks um or secrets to engaging with somebody who's different. maybe I don't know if he stumbled upon it, if that's just his personality, but his method of doing it I can see where it'd be incredibly effective. And something that all of us should try, including me. So I'll probably start trying to be a little bit more open to those conversations with with strangers in strange lands. Robby (1:02:48) yeah, I don't think he would reference it in this way, but yeah, he's developed an interview style that is disarming to those he's engaged with and it's interesting. how he came up with a style that gets through the exterior and gets as he put it the layer underneath. and was revealing. it ended up revealing the similarities, which I appreciate. David (1:03:11) Yeah. No, I thought it was really great, especially for somebody who's so young. so hopefully we'll keep going on and doing interesting, new, cool stuff and talking with folks and maybe getting people to be a bit more inspired and turn things around on themselves a little bit because even I can think about as you go somewhere new, you're not thinking, How can I integrate into this environment? You're thinking potentially what is different about this than what I'm used to? and just that little shift towards trying to integrate, can really change the experience that you have, which is neat 'cause I I don't think I've ever thought about it that way. so I guess I'm gonna have to stop being an asshole everywhere I go. Robby (1:03:44) That might help. that that may make the difference. that's probably the toughest thing though. So good luck with David (1:03:48) Yeah. Robby (1:03:49) that. David (1:03:49) I'm gonna try. All right. Well, for those of you who are not aware, we still have our giveaway going on every week. you shoot us an email, you will be entered in with one entry. If you let us know which socials you follow us on and give us some like screenshot or something of that, you'll have two entries. If you happen to email us from the same email that is on our newsletter list, then that will be three. And the word for this week is going to be the bubble. So include that in there and you'll have a fourth entry for this week. the other three are just they'll they'll maintain as long as we're doing this. we'll have two winners every week, we will reach out to you if you win, let you know that you've won. Will you tell us what piece of merch you want, what size, what color, whatever, and we will ship it to you. We'll pay the shipping and make sure that you get that merch. So send us those emails and we will do it. Robby, you got anything else? Robby (1:04:43) I do not. I'm I'm contemplative. David (1:04:46) Well, then we will leave Rob as being contemplative. And thank everybody for sticking around and listening. Go ahead and share us on socials. Like, subscribe, follow, do all those things that you do. And that's it. So I will cue up that music. And we are out.