The Politics of Possession: Demons, Communists, and the Iran War

David (00:00) You probably noticed that once a political opponent gets called evil, the conversation becomes easier and considerably dumber. to no longer have to explain the policy, test the evidence, or define an end state. they just point at the demon. In this episode, we move from a Tennessee bookstore to communists and campaign rhetoric to the Iran war. And ask what demonization does for people and institutions that would rather escalate than explain. District the nation. Let's go. David (01:05) Alright, hey, here we go. Welcome back to Shrink the Nation. I'm David. I'm a board certified psychiatrist with over 20 years of experience in the military. And today I am having the first alcoholic beverage that I've had in weeks. due to some hospital related issues. But I am gonna have what is called barrel bourboned. And this is Batch thirty eight. It is a cask strength blend of straight bourbon whiskies and I'll tell you the blend a 12 year Kentucky, a nine and ten year Indiana, a fifteen and twelve year Tennessee bourbon, and an eight year Maryland. Maryland being known for their bourbon. Rob (01:46) Got a couple. David (01:47) One of these things is not like the others. It is 116.96 proof. Rob (01:52) Yikes. David (01:52) And it very much tastes like it. So 79% Rob (01:55) Yeah. David (01:56) corn, 17% rye, 4% malted barley. has all the makings of a bourbon that I would fucking hate, and you would fucking love. Rob (02:05) Probably. that is an American mutt right there. that is the quintessential American drink in a bottle. an amalgamation of multiple states, multiple bourbons. yeah, plus it packs a punch. So that's about as American as it gets. Matter of fact, it's not American, it's America right there. David (02:23) That first sip definitely tasted like gasoline. so whatever function my taste buds are serving at this point, it's going down pretty smooth. I it definitely has that spicy dirty taste that you get with bourbon that you like, but it's pretty good. Rob (02:38) So physiologically, that first drink depolarizes those nerve endings that really identify temperature. So that's why it tastes like gasoline, because it's all depolarized. After that first drink, once those things have been, shocked into non-function, then you can start tasting it. So there is some physiology to this, believe it or not. David (02:59) it's getting better and I'm enjoying it in my shrink responsibly Urban glass. Rob (03:04) He has a proper cube. it's David (03:06) I do have a barber cube. Rob (03:07) it's Rob, board certified psychiatrist, lots of years of military service. and apparently I look like a dermatologist. David (03:14) That's what I've been told. You look like a dermatologist. Rob (03:17) Yep. David (03:17) I feel like you should be a lot happier. Rob (03:19) I'm gonna take that as a compliment. healthy skin for a man my age, I guess, Lot of lotions, folks. Lots of lotions. Concoctions. Exfoliating constantly. Just constantly. All right. What are we talking about today, David? David (03:32) we were going to do this episode few weeks ago and then Trump started trumping and we didn't get a chance to. Rob (03:38) Trump's gonna trap, baby. David (03:40) was looking back through my notes on episodes, And fortunately for us, even though Trump still trumped in the last week, Rob (03:48) He sure did. David (03:49) he trumped in a way that makes this more apropos for this particular topic. And so what the hell? Let's talk about it. It starts off with an article called The Demon Next Door posted July seventh in the Atlantic. written by Stephanie McCrumman talking about a charismatic Christian church in Maryville Maryville, Maryville, Maryville, Marville, Rob (04:10) What state? David (04:11) Tennessee. Rob (04:11) it's Maribel. David (04:13) Marble. All right. In Marvel, Tennessee, I'm gonna leave all those in so people can hear me go through the iterations and they could choose whichever one's right. Rob (04:20) Notice that Rob from Appalachia immediately knew how to say that. David (04:24) I had a co-resident who would always say that they were from East Tennessee, to which I would then reply, so Knoxville, and really pissed them off every time. Every time. So Knoxville. so it's the story centers around this church called the Well. And the the leaders of this church describe themselves as spiritual warriors with a divine mandate to eradicate witchcraft. And demonic activity in the region. And they set up this church in a shop. And eventually they identified that lo and behold, the bookstore across the street was just swarming with demonic activity. this bookstore was called Southland Books and Cafe, and it been around for some time. this is not an ordinary bookstore. They would host readings and music and trivia. They had actually Democratic Party activities from time to time. And occasionally they would have drag related fundraisers. what ended up happening, spoiler alert, was that the well started a campaign that had Prayer walks, online videos, they'd complain to authorities, and they ended up doing some research and finding this old Tennessee law that governed cabaret performances near churches. And essentially they just started to harass this bookstore. per the owners of the church, unbeknownst to them, There were some neo-Nazi members that had participated in a protest of the bookstore, and the church owners say they they had no idea, they didn't set that up. It just happened. And the bookstore owner was afraid enough that she made sure that all of her employees participate in active shooter trainings and started keeping weapons and defensive sprays in the bookstore we're not here to discuss demons or Christianity or neonazis or anything like that. the part that matters to me psychologically and why this was interesting is that there's this shift from this private metaphysical belief that turns into this public threat designation attached to a specific living person or people or neighbor. And that can start changing behaviors. the interesting part now is psychologically, what function is the demon playing in human behaviors that we're seeing, especially in this order? Rob (06:41) So, I'm immediately reminded of the witch trials, Winston's Salem, Salem witch trials. David (06:48) the Winston Salem witch trials. Rob (06:50) Right, where they smoke cigarettes and drowned women David (06:52) Lit people on fire. Rob (06:53) yeah, so I'm immediately reminded of that. for those of our tens of listeners who are truly, truly hardcore they may actually recall that we once did an episode dedicated to this. but that's what I'm reminded of. and fundamentally where you would see something like this is in a troubled community. usually the troubles are widespread. and sometimes incoherent. they're coming from multiple directions. And in today's world, there are multiple reasons why many, many small communities are troubled. economic factors social factors and political factors. they all combine when you go this route identifying an enemy like this you're taking a troubled community And then you're restoring coherence by localizing the evil in a specific vessel. you've taken a broad problem that it's very difficult to grab, and now you've given it an address. So in general, demonization is a defense against ambiguity. and it is so much easier to have a specific demon that you are facing off with, doing battle with, going to war with, than it is to face the ambiguity of life as we actually experience it. Life is very ambiguous, and the problems that we are faced with are often nebulous and difficult to get our hands around. So much simpler to distill it down to a demon living in a bookstore magically across the street from your church. David (08:19) Yeah, what's interesting is that once you've labeled something like a bookstore as vessel or a stronghold for demonic activity, it turns every little disagreement into spiritual warfare. You don't have to worry about what are they doing Because It's already bad. whatever the true intentions of somebody, it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter what the bookstore owner says or does, she could have petting zoo in the parking lot for the local orphanage. and it wouldn't matter. That's an evil gesture at that point. Rob (08:52) Right. It'd be zoophilia or something. David (08:54) Yeah. Rob (08:54) That'd be grooming children at that point. yeah, there's a secondary effect and this is maybe a more jaded perspective, but the secondary effect for an organization is organizations can strengthen their membership by identifying a shared enemy. us versus them to consolidate your membership. and give them purpose and a sense of energy to do battle against this evil because you don't have to think through evil. Once you've labeled something as evil, it's just evil. you don't have to dice it out. You don't have to think through the nuance of it. It's evil. And we can all agree evil's evil. don't dissent, don't question how we're spending the church money, don't question the hours, what we're doing. We're fighting evil here, people. And are you for evil? Because apparently you are. David (09:42) it turns your actions into defensive actions. So if you start to fight that particular entity, you're not doing it as an offensive measure, you're doing it as a defensive measure. not to harm them, but to protect you, even if you're the aggressor, it also rewards the escalation of behaviors as being in obedience to something greater than yourself. when you say, Well, there's a demon there and your churchgoers start to become more and more aggressive towards that, that's a good thing. Good. You're protecting God has sent you to do these things. it serves a lot of function. But why? why are we talking about it, Rob (10:16) let me dial out historically. from a Jungian standpoint, there's this concept of the shadow, which for our hardcore listeners, we've also had an episode on. Go back to the archives, folks. David (10:27) Strength the nation dot com. Rob (10:28) Carl Jung believed that we all had a shadow, and he also believed Individuals tribes cultures have a shadow. and what he would reference the shadow as is all the things about ourselves our culture our nation or our community that we don't like, we're embarrassed of. We push it into the shadow, we're not gonna look at it. we're gonna pretend it's not there. Carl Jung referred to psychotherapy as shadow work. and his belief was is that until you pulled those things from the shadow, brought them into the light, identified what things were driving you in your shadow, you were destined to relive these things and call it fate Drink everybody, it was a quote. what happens though in communities or individuals who aren't engaged in that exercise of thinking about what's in their shadow, they tend to project their shadow on others. one of the dynamics that would drive this would be an organization. that is not self-reflective. and they take all the negatives that exist. and let's face it, in any organization, I don't care how pure they are, there are some things that are questionable, that would exist in the shadow, behaviors or activities that they are not proud of, that they want to disavow or disown. so they take those things and they project it on a different group. scapegoating in a more specific way, I suppose. it would serve a psychological function. make them feel more comfortable. They don't have to look at themselves, they're looking externally. they don't have to face the conflict that exists within all of us. I see myself as a good person, but I have a history of doing X, Y, and Z. I'm embarrassed of it. I'm gonna pretend like it doesn't exist. one of the things from way back when the shadow is kind of like having a dead raccoon in your basement. you can pretend it's not there, but you've got a dead carcass in your basement, and it's gonna stink. until you, pull out the snow shovel and the Walmart bags and go down to that basement and scoop up that carcass, put in the double bagged Walmart bag, tie it tight and get rid of it, you're gonna be dealing with the stick. so you gotta get your ass in gear and go do that. however, it's easier to blame someone else in the house and tell them they stink than to actually go deal with the carcass. David (12:48) I agree with what you're saying, because I often do. One thing that I was thinking about is that there's another purpose that projecting that kind of energy onto another can serve. And that's where when you have this sense of self that is predicated on being good pure godly and all those things, but there is something external to you that bothers you, really pisses you off and brings that anger. of which you then can project those negative emotions onto because you don't find them acceptable, if I'm a kind, loving, wonderful, good person, and that thing bothers me to the point that I need for it to be eradicated, then there must be something wrong with it. it's not my emotions that's the problem. that thing is drawing the emotion out of me. And so to assign that a negative label, like being a demon gives me permission to experience that particular emotion without accepting that it's mine. it turns into this permission structure to rationalize your own behaviors, not consciously, Rob (13:53) that would fit with what I was saying. David (13:55) Mm-hmm. Rob (13:56) it's a really good angle though, because it puts a point on what's I was saying. So let's imagine and I am certainly not attacking Christianity or religion or whatever faith is a beautiful thing. However, the tradition of Christianity is love thy neighbor, so things like anger, hate, aggression, are not consistent with the ethos of that religion. To pretend like they don't exist is a good example of shoving something into the shadow. And Christianity has a long history of shoving those things into their shadow. then acting them out. Not just Christianity, every religion, fundamentally. David (14:30) Everybody. Rob (14:31) well, everybody, if we were to do the math, how many people have been killed in the name of all powerful, all loving God, we'd probably be pretty stunned. however, once you have identified a demon, pure evil. It allows you to enact those elements of your shadow without taking responsibility for them even without rectifying the incongruity between the teachings of Jesus Christ and aggression, anger, hatred. David (14:57) you're absolutely right, but then it also helps to escalate your own perceived status within that system because you are doing this in the name of the system. It's no longer I feel uncomfortable because I dislike them, it's they're very evil. And so in order to protect the system. I'm going to do what I have to to eliminate that threat. And I'm not doing that because I'm bad. I'm actually doing that because I'm super good. I'm a huge fan of Jesus, not a big fan of Beelzebub. And even though he says to love thy neighbor, he means that. Except for that guy. And we gotta get rid of that guy because that's actually making it harder for me to love my neighbor. it's an interesting cycle. okay. that's where wanted to start. the bigger conversation a couple of weeks ago we also talked about communists. on july twenty seventh, President Donald Jerovicius Trump went to Michigan. Rob (15:50) just changed it. Jehoshaphat. David (15:52) Well it was Jehoshaphat. now it's Jerebitus. Rob (15:54) Chair Vicious. David (15:55) It's gonna change every time, Ronnie. Rob (15:56) or one hundred and ten bourbons have an effect. David (15:59) it might be Jeb in the future. I don't know. Jebadaya, Jediah. Rob (16:03) Jadadaya? David (16:04) Yeah. let's tie this conversation into what's happening now and see what we can do with that. So on july twenty seventh, Donald Jebediah Trump went to Michigan and ended up doing a campaign style event where he started calling his democratic opponents communists, which was a little bit odd for factory appearances. And just for clarity, the Democratic Socialists of America released a pretty radical platform that proposed some major structural changes that would include abolishing the Senate, replacing the president and the Supreme Court with officials selected through Congress, extending voting rights to permanent residents, and even dismantling institutions like ICE in prisons. So this is absolutely hard left radical agenda that was put out by Democratic Socialists of America. To be clear, not all the Democratic Socialists of America backed candidates agree with this, but they don't all disagree either. the more important thing is that Not all the Democrats agree with this either. probably very few Democrats actually agree with that. I'm not gonna tell you that the DSA doesn't have a fairly radical platform. They do. what was interesting about this was that Donald Trump has continued to call all Democrats communists when they don't necessarily fall into that category. And Mike Johnson started referring to this situation as barbarians inside the gate. we saw this coming. it's not that we didn't talk about it. We absolutely did. and by the way, if you want to go to shrinkthenation dot com, check out that episode. It was two episodes ago, called The Grand Unified Conspiracy. If you check out that episode open up the enhanced episodes, you will see the fact checking that we did on ourselves we are now starting to fact check everything that we do. And Robbie, if you've ever wanted to get emotionally kicked in the nuts, fact check the shit that you say on a podcast and see what happens. We may be the only people Rob (18:03) Yeah. David (18:04) that do it, but we do it. Rob (18:05) Yeah. David (18:06) And it's rough. Rob (18:07) yeah, anything you say in real time can come back to haunt you. So the reason we ended up doing this is I'm frequently frustrated with my experience of cable news. there's all these talking heads that make these grand proclamations day in and day out, and we never revisit the quality of their grand proclamation. and I thought, you know what? Me and David, we're better than that. You know, that's Bush League. We're professionals. And our journalistic integrity was on the line. So we decided we were going to fact check our ourselves. I'm sure much to my chagrin and embarrassment, because I know I've made some predictions in the last year and a half of doing this. And I know I've been wrong a lot. I should stick to psychiatry and not future predictions. David (18:48) not punditry. Yeah, so we have two things. one is the corrections and clarifications from our episodes then if you scroll down we will also have predictions that we made in the episode which we will sometimes go back and decide, hey, how did we do? on last week's episode where the prediction was that we would somehow be able to get through the episode without talking about Donald Trump. We failed that one almost immediately, I think, instantly, Rob (19:15) Almost out of the gate, baby. David (19:16) that shows up. So that's the type of thing that we're doing as far as predictions. you can check them all out and see everything that we're talking about. So here's the thing though. what we're seeing and what we thought we would see is that the Republican platform is now labeling the entire Democratic Party as communists. why is that gonna work? Rob (19:35) I'm curious ultimately if it will, and I guess we'll see. my speculation if it works, it will, because communism for folks who are my age and older carries an emotional valence. in Jungians speak, it is a complex. a bubble of emotion for us. And if you grew up in the time frame that I grew up and my parents grew up and my grandparents grew up, there was a perpetual battle being waged between the forces of democracy and the forces of communism. And David (20:08) I thought you were gonna say north and the south. Rob (20:09) well that luckily had ended. it was rough though. It it was rough. That was when I wore short pants and then I grew up. and I became a full fledged adult and I don't wear short pants now. so at any rate it occupies a an emotional complex of valence for us. And it does. I hear the word and mentally there's a part of me that's pulled back to being a 10 year old kid waiting for Armageddon. for the bombs to start falling out of the sky and the world to end. So if it does work, it's because of that. it's gonna capture the memories and experiences of that group who still have living memory of what it was like to face the Soviet Union and the potential end of the world. David (20:49) what's really fascinating about it is that using the label communist on the Democratic Party, it's not being used to classify their economic stance. Rob (21:00) Not a bit. David (21:00) It's being used to create a narrative about the secular possession that exists. And so when you call them communists, you're saying these people are controlled by this alien ideology that what they're telling you is either false or irrelevant. It doesn't matter what they say. the typical presence of electoral competition that exists where you have a Zoran Mamdani who wins something, subversion at that point. It's not that that's how our democratic process works. It's that they're trying to trick you into voting for them. And if we were to even compromise a little bit with this group, And say listen to some of their ideas, that opens up the ability for that infection to spread across all of our politics. And so we can't allow this to proceed. if we lose to them, that's it. Our country is gone. the Democratic Party does the exact same thing with the Republican Party. They just call it fascism. The truth is there are some socialist principles that are coming out of the DSA. There are some fascist principles that are coming out of the Republican Party as well. but delegitimizes the opposition the point that it's not enough. to just win. Rob (22:20) I like the terminology demonization, possession, I'm gonna go back to demonization is outsourcing ambiguity because the truth be told, if you look into the DSA, the Democratic Socialists of America's platform, it's ambiguous. there's a lot of nuance to it and the politicians that have actually been successful don't necessarily agree with each and every platform plank of the DSA. then on the other side, fascism. if you look at the ideal fascist state, which I suppose would be Nazi Germany. there are elements, but it's still very ambiguous, what we're seeing now. And the truth be told, here's something that I just find fascinating is that the United States government, that the left currently, the administration the left is is labeling as fascist, has actually engaged in some very communistic practices when it comes to taking stake in private businesses. and they just announced that they're taking stake in yet another business, 10% of that business, which I think sets a terrible precedence. But that is a clearly communistic if we're just looking at what the principles of these political systems are, that's very communistic. However, we're not doing that. We're taking ambiguity, we're taking nuance, we're throwing it out the window, and we're demonizing or using a terminology to simplify into blacks and whites. And that's another element of why we're doing this is that communicating the complexity of this world and the complexity of a political system. is not easy. you're gonna have to capture an audience's attention for a long time to really run through the treatise of this is what we mean, this is what's going on, this is the elements here, these are the elements there. so it's a rhetorical tool to simplify into a black and white that you can throw out in a sound bite. another problem is that we're simplifying the nuance of life into something that is so overly simplistic that it loses meaning, but it captures people's attention. David (24:22) And it captures it effectively. I mean, I think that's the point it's a lot easier to say they're communists than to point out the pros and the cons of the arguments that they're making. Or even if you were just to point out the cons. Honestly, if you were just to say, Well, I disagree with this part of their platform, the attention economy that we live in right now just doesn't give you the time of day. If you could get somebody to watch your video for twenty seconds, then good on you. Rob (24:46) Right. I would love get Mike Johnson as a guest of our show. David says no, but I would love it I would love to ask him some simple questions like name one Democrat that's not a communist. distinguish for me the difference between socialism, democratic socialism. social democracy, liberalism, and communism. I'd love to see if he could do that. And what is your evidence here? this is a format where we could actually speak for 60 minutes. Not that we have an audience. Bless your hearts if you're listening to us. and I think it's this point in the show where we should say like woof woof For all the pets that people just leave this running to keep their dogs occupied. David (25:24) they just went ape shit and everyone just changed the station. Rob (25:26) Yeah, yeah. But the reality is no, they wouldn't want to answer those questions because they would break the demonization down into nuance. And that's not what demonization is supposed to do. It is purely to delete nuance and make it very simple. And then we team up. gonna team up. I'm either gonna be team fascist or team communist, one direction or the other. simple. David (25:49) yeah. I suspect that if we were to have a private conversation with nearly any member of Congress, we would probably be able to go into more nuance if it were off the record. But once you put it out in the interwebs, nobody's gonna tell you what they actually think. Rob (26:05) I'm jaded. I David (26:06) Except for Tommy Tuberville, I think he would. He'd probably tell ya Rob (26:09) He might. Kennedy might David (26:10) Think he would. Rob (26:10) too. He Kennedy's gonna give you some folksy weird quasi-sexual thing, aphorism that will leave you kind of creeped out. I love it when he talks. just love it. this is the jaded part of me, is that I do think a lot of our politicians hold the electorate in contempt because they actually understand just how easy we are to sway by throwing words like communist, fascist out into the public specter. those who oversimplify they probably do achieve maybe a little bit you know, Bill Clinton actually was known for this and achieved some success because He had an ability to not necessarily oversimplify. He could explain in a way that was understandable to the masses. and he had a skill. And to a degree, Barack Obama was able to do this, but he also got the label of being kind of pedantic and kind of professorial because he liked to explain things. he resisted the urge to simplify. David (27:08) I just reminded of the movie Idiocracy and when he starts to talk they're like he sounded pompous and Rob (27:17) Yeah. So when I'm listening some politicians speak and they are oversimplifying things, they are overgeneralizing, they are demonizing. I feel personally offended because I feel like they're attacking my intelligence. but they do it for a reason, and that reason is that it is an effective way to hit The thirty percent on each side of the political spectrum. you can speak about a bell curve, you can draw your own conclusions. I'm not casting dispersions here. I am a proud American patriot. and as it turns out, I do actually really care for and love my American neighbors, regardless of their political stripes. but it does work for about thirty percent on each side. look at any pole. there's thirty percent hardcore on one side and there's thirty percent hardcore on the other side then there's the forty percent in the middle that actually makes the difference. David (28:09) I think what made what you just said even more robust was the fact that somehow you were able to get a large American flag to drop down behind you as Rob (28:20) Mm-hmm. David (28:20) you were saying that. And it had just enough wave. For those who can't see because it's a podcast, that's exactly what just happened. I was impressed. I was impressed. Rob (28:26) It was impressive. Right. Well, y you you know, the production value. I don't skimp. I do not skimp on production value for this show. No way. David (28:37) We just want our tens of listeners to know that that definitely happened and that Rob (28:41) Right. David (28:42) I we just wanted to s describe it to you. Rob (28:44) Yeah, I got both my boys on it and they made it happen, so I'm I'm proud of right now. David (28:49) Excellent. that was impressive Robin. Okay. before we move on to our last chunk here. I want to talk about our website a little bit more because we've been putting a lot into it. shrinkthenation.com. So not only can you access all of our episodes enhanced, so more information in our episodes, more background, behavioral lenses, behavioral patterns that we talk about. Fact checks, links to things that we talked about, a new predictions tracker, go our civic desk that allows you to locate civic officers in your area, the people that you're voting for, and then helps you draft letters to discuss. propositions, house bills, whatever you want and helps you sound not like you've had several glasses of bourbon. and helps you find the ways to get that to them, whether it's the phone number, the email address, their website, form link, allows you to move that information. But also we have what I think is much more fun than it actually deserves to be arcade of currently and hell by the time this post might be more, but seven games. If you like pinball, we got pinball. If you like Survivor Runaround and Stay Alive, we got that. If you like a frogger style game, we got that too. My favorite, Robbie, if you haven't played it yet, is called Feet Interceptor. And it is just like our show. Super fucking fun, way more complex than it probably should be, and just a blast. So give those all a try. that's my plug for our website, but spend some time there. We just keep adding stuff because it's fun to do. Rob (30:27) I was looking through the predictions a little earlier today and I was pleasantly surprised or happy that some of my more aggressive predictions in terms of the outcome of Iran were not featured because I I I David (30:44) They will be. Rob (30:44) I had some pretty aggressive predictions there. And I was wrong multiple times. David (30:49) it'll be there for sure. right now the question we have is it valuable to go back to season one and pull predictions from those episodes? And I don't know that it is. So I think we're probably gonna just stick to season two, but it does take a little bit of time to find the predictions Rob (31:04) Yeah. David (31:04) and then come up. But I'm gonna do what I can to get as many in here as possible so you can go through and look. it's just a fun thing, but it's actually pretty cool. so give that a look, Okay, so now that we're done plugging that, let's segue to our last topic. on July thirty first, Donald Jeremiah Trump was at Camp David, which in the past he's said that he doesn't like very much. I think that's accurate. I imagine that I will get fact checked Rob (31:31) He's denigrated it, yes. The quality of the David (31:34) it's not Mar-a-Lago Rob (31:36) It's not Mar a Laga, baby. Not enough gold. David (31:38) struggling through the time that he is spending at Camp David, he mentioned that we would continue hitting Iran, quote, very hard, with an expectation that this sustained punishment that we're gonna provide will eventually make them unable or unwilling to continue fighting us. But how does that tie into the topic that we're talking about, demonization of groups? Rob (32:01) it's in the verbiage that has been used specific to Iran the picture has been painted that they posed a clear and imminent threat to our existence, which justifies this war. Now, one thing that creates a little ambiguity for me is that Iran for the last forty ish years. has been a bad actor. it has sponsored terrorism, has been a thorn in our side and a challenge to the stability of that region. so in many ways, I'm gonna agree they're a bad actor. But where I am going to vehemently disagree was this idea that All of the sudden to justify this war, they posed a clear and imminent threat to our existence suddenly, even though nothing really changed, and there's no evidence to support that they were on the cusp of a nuclear weapon or missile capabilities that could reach the United States. They have been painted in vague demonized terminology. David (33:01) Yes. the way that I think this ties in is that rather than coming up with a clean strategy to eliminate the threat that Iran poses, what is happening right now is that we're taking on this metaphorical exorcism of this demonic force. through action of punishment. And the difference here is that punishment is an action, but strategy is a theory about what that action is going to eventually produce, It's not hope. It's not hope based. Rob (33:32) Hope is not a strategy. David (33:33) There has to be some theory behind it. in order to have this coercive campaign that we think can actually be strategically coherent to help eliminate the threat that Iran poses, there needs to be some kind of defined demand, some sort of plausible model of how that opponent makes their decisions, some sort of achievable stopping condition, a way to tell whether or not the approach is actually working. And then an off ramp that doesn't require the enemy to just become morally good. when none of those things are clear the escalation of force that we're seeing it really becomes a ritual demonstration of seriousness rather than actual seriousness to control the threat. Rob (34:14) Indeed, and Donald Jezebel Trump, David (34:18) He got a girl's middle thing. Rob (34:20) he is the anti-strategy president. and through most of his first term and into this term, he relied on raw American power, which we have a lot. We have significant military power. he relied on that to overcome his lack of interest in strategy. the difference is is that Prior to Iran, he was wielding that power toward forces that were not that formidable. And Iran, we have absolutely operationally dominated there's a fundamental misunderstanding about what a war is. war is politics by other means. that was said by a military strategist named von Klausowitz, who held military thought sway for a very long time. he wrote a book called On War, and it's still required reading in the military world. and this is where Americans might get confused, is that how can we win militarily? dominate operationally and still lose the war? Well, it's because we didn't define what our political instate was. And we also did not apply appropriate strategy and think through everyone prepare to drink. the second and third order effects of what we did. Drink it down, and if it was going to contribute to the final political outcome. So, the memo of understanding was basically a capitulation of the United States to Iran. It was we lost and we're admitting it. We're giving you as much as you want, take anything, let's just get out of this thing. it is interesting, that a man who has the resources available to him as the President of the United States could be so anti strategy that he would blunder us into this situation. And that's exactly what's happened. because there was no consideration of strategy. David (36:10) do you think at this point and I wonder is the demonification of Iran is that how we got into it or is that how we're seeing justification to Try to finish it by escalation because what you'll see is that when we embody a full state as Iran, the demon, we're ignoring the fact that states are going to be made up of political leaders and military leaders and security organizations and civilian institutions and all these competing internal factions and populations that have totally different interests. And what we're doing is we're compressing that into one demonic state that has malicious intent, which then allows us to escalate punishment because now punishment becomes logical towards the demonic state because we're attacking the essence. of the state, not the actual behavior that we're currently see. Rob (37:06) Yeah, that was a brilliant response, Rob. hell of a job. good podcasting. Yup. David (37:11) Yup. Next. Rob (37:12) moving on. David (37:13) Ha ha. Rob (37:14) no, and I I I think we're currently seeing that, the less effective we are in bringing this to a close. the more you will see demonization of Iran in order to justify the only tools because we have approached this in such a strategic malpractice, anti-strategy. in such a poor way that the tools available to us at this point are limited. And it really is a blunt force. It is a hammer. That's all we got now because we have demonstrated we're not willing to invest the blood and treasure to send ground troops in. all we can do is strike from above. we can pound, pound, pound. And in order to do that, because we're running out of military targets, we now have to hit civilian targets. We have to hit bridges and power plants and water desalinization plants. in order to punish them with the hope that they are going to capitulate, which they've been pretty resistant to now, that in order to do that, we have to demonize them more. we really do have to narrow them down. We have to forget that there are children and innocence involved in this. And we have to narrow it down to this demonized force and really highlight the fact that they have been a bad actor. Is that the fault of the average five year old in Iran who is gonna pay the price for this? Obviously not. But are we gonna talk about the average five year old? Hell no. We're not gonna mention that there are five year olds who are suffering in Iran because the only tool we have left is blunt force. David (38:44) Which is interesting because you describe this escalation loop that occurs when you demonize something where you say, Okay, the enemy is evil. evil only understands force. And then when that force fails to achieve whatever the intended result is, if there is one, now you have failure which proves that the force wasn't sufficient, which requires more force at that point. And then any request that you might have for strategic clarity is now being labeled as weakness on our part. And that's a self-sustaining model of escalation that has no end. And I don't want to suggest that Iran is infallible here But we have to understand that a real threat requires a much more disciplined analysis of what's going on, not less. Not saying, well, they're evil, therefore, let's just blow it up. Anyway, I think we hit what we can. Robbie? any prescriptions for these fine tens of folks and their Unaccompanied pets. Rob (39:48) yeah, I feel like I should speak in like dog language because I have a sneaking suspicion that it's really our tens of listeners' pets that might be listening to us. All right. I have a prescription, David. Effective immediately, all demons, communists, fascists, traitors, and enemies within must complete form six six six A. Application for official villain status. Applications must provide three documented acts of actual villainy, two ordinary incentives that might explain their behavior. One piece of evidence capable of changing your mind and proof that the application is not simply a person you find exhausting. David (40:24) Okay, that one's pretty good. And it fucking ruins mine. So I'm gonna use another one. My prescription is that every military escalation announcement must include the complete sentence. We will stop insert objective thing period exclamation point something for the love of God. Just tell us the objective to your plan. Rob (40:50) It ain't gonna happen, buddy. It's just not gonna happen. That requires strategy. David (40:55) Have you noticed that Common Sense is the insurance company of our prescriptions? Yeah, you can prescribe it, but we're not fucking giving it. Rob (41:04) Our friend Donald Jenkins Trump. Is the anti-strategy president. And in order to have an objective, you have to have a strategy. And his life has never been one of strategy. it just hasn't. if we go back in his life, his success, and I realize he's a wealthy man, but he has failed. More than he has succeeded, it's just that he's got the power and money to fail upward and offset his cost to a different population. So we are not gonna get an objective. it just is not gonna happen. But I like it. We should implement it in the next administration. David (41:42) Well, we have come to the end. again, shrinkthenation dot com is a ridiculously over engineered website with way more than it deserves to have. You could get lost in there for hours whether it's the stupid web comics that are just funny to me. the arcade games that are actually pretty fun to play. The deep, thoughtful looks at our episodes, as well as fact checks, links to stuff we talk about, none of which brings us money, I promise you. and our predictions. So please check out our website, sign up for our newsletter, which will give you hot links to all the stuff we just talked about and our clips that we put on socials. my God, Robbie, we are trying and acting as if we are way bigger than we are, but you know what? It's pretty entertaining so what the fuck? Might as well. That's it. Rob (42:32) We've got a strategy. And my last request to Donald Jim Bob Trump is invest in the book Idiot's Guide to Strategy. David (42:41) God, that would change our entire reality. This timeline would completely change if he would learn strategy. Rob (42:48) our personal business model would just evaporate. David (42:50) Honestly, I think if the guy learned actual strategy, we would be totally fucked because his goals are typically not achieved through his lack of strategy. that's the problem. I say retract that. I hope he doesn't find that book and figure out how to actually could Rob (43:05) No. David (43:05) you imagine how fucking terrifying our world would be right now if the man had Any follow through. So let's let the toddler toddler. and all I can say is that Donald Jonathan Trump keep on Trumpin. And with that, I'm gonna cue up that music. And we are out.