When Invasion Feels Normal

David (00:00) Something big happened this week. Big enough that 10 years ago it would have stopped the country cold. We invaded another nation and took their head of state. And if your reaction was a shrug or a half-worn, well, he probably deserved it. That reaction matters more than the event itself. Because when extraordinary things stop feeling extraordinary, it's not stability, it's adaptation. This episode isn't about politics. slowly learn to tolerate things they never would have accepted before. If that makes you uncomfortable, good. This is Shrink the Nation. Welcome to Season 2. David (01:10) Hey, this is David. Over 20 years in the military, dual boarded psychiatrist, and once again, the designated adult in the room, at least on paper. I was planning on doing a dry January this year. That plan lasted about as long as a Saturday press conference where a announces it abducted a foreign gunpoint and called it stability. So in the spirit of realism, tonight I'm very much not doing dry January. I'm drinking Mikhter's US one small batch. Solid dependable confident and unlike most institutions will be talking about tonight. It actually does what it promises Classic mickters profile caramel vanilla a little oak just enough spice to remind you it's there nothing flashy no gimmicks just Competence in glass which frankly feels a little aspirational right now and with that Handed over to Robbie who unlike me may still be pretending. This is a dry January household Rob (01:57) So far, absolutely is a dry January. yet again, got overly engaged in taskings and didn't make it to the store. So what I'm looking forward to trying is a couple of things. A friend of mine who is very into bourbon has Evan Williams bottled in bond. version, which 100 proof. Says it's fantastic. Evan Williams. So it's not very expensive. He said it's, you know, one of the best often overlooked. So I am looking forward to trying that at some point eventually. But today I'm yet again, drinking coffee. Starbucks, the Blond Rose. David (02:36) okay. At least it's blonde. Rob (02:36) Anyway, yeah, it's right. Well, I have a type. can I say? Yeah, I years in psychiatry and ish in the military. And I am so excited to talk about attacking another country. David (02:39) I love burnt forward to it. for anybody who has Been burying their in the sand Which you don't need to do that people. Come on. Come out. Have a drink with us happened on Saturday January 3rd was a press conference military Venezuela the US, dictator Maduro, his them out of the country. Rob (03:17) the head of state. because they're a book ended pair, apparently. You gotta take them both. David (03:24) excites me because there much psychology this action. gosh, what better way to start off season abduction. Rob (03:32) No, I concur with you. way to start with a bang. You know, but before we talk about the psychology of it, step back and talk about the military aspect of it from a purely, and this is this is not psychological, and this is not ethical. But from a purely military standpoint, what we did is just shy of stunning. We were able to a foreign nation under circumstances in which they had a reasonable guess that we were coming. So they were at heightened level of alert. We were able to abduct specific targeted individual. We were able to to get out of there. with no loss of US life. This is movie level stuff. I cannot wait to actually read reality of what I'm saying, I think there's been some hints that there were at least a few US service people who were injured, critically injured, but injured. I am going to guess It was a non-zero sum Venezuelan people who probably were killed and or injured. But from a purely military standpoint, engaging in this kind of operation is pretty stunning. It's amazing actually that, you know, the boys of Delta Force, something off. true. David (04:51) Which doesn't Rob (04:53) the non-existent Delta Force boys pulled something off that is just shy of miraculous to go into another nation and extract a very specific individual. It's pretty amazing. David (05:06) this is movie level imagine Netflix might get their hands on it maybe Paramount. I imagine Paramount Plus will probably be more film this Rob (05:10) Probably next there'll be a movie. some God damn platform that I don't have. don't have to fucking buy it. David (05:17) figure with David Ellison they probably already had rights to it before it even occurred. Rob (05:22) Well, given the level of our political engagement choosing movies, I'm going to guess that the rights were given prior to the operation. it'll come out with the Jackie Chan movie. that plus this probably headline. It'll be like a dual movie blockbuster kind of thing. David (05:41) Yeah, I imagine it's probably gonna involve John Krasinski not Chris Rob (05:45) you David (05:47) it'll be John Krasinski the rock. Why not? That sounds pretty good. Rob (05:49) No, no, you nailed it. You nailed Absolutely. gonna be a be very dramatic. I'm sure David (05:57) be want to be clear that Nicholas Maduro, from our perspective, the US not a great guy. dictator, definitely does some pretty terrible evil shit kills people. steal an election. Not a good dude. only thing that's in question. a lot of people excited he's no longer in power. It's gonna happen moving forward that is probably the more concerning of the things, but let's talk about what are we looking at? why do we care? Why do we even give a shit? Rob (06:25) Well, so my attention has been drawn to this. I've been watching network news. From a meta analysis kind of standpoint, what I have been struck by with myself personally is that the grand total of my response to this has been. I've not felt the weight of what we did. Now, if we step back from this, what we did as a nation is that we engaged in a hot operation. We attacked another nation. not only did we attack them, we invaded them and we abducted the head of state of that nation. And that is a incredibly big deal. I a big thing. What, again, from a meta-analysis standpoint, what I have been struck by with myself is how little emotion, surprise, not felt it as being that big a deal. was struck by the precision of the operation. have not been you know, I think back to other times when we have attacked other nations, when bombed Iran, there was some that it initiated in me that we had just struck another nation. this case, nothing. I have no emotional with this. And that in and of itself has struck me as consideration. David (07:48) for me, I agree in some ways. Like, I don't know what the major effect is going to be of this as far as from our perspective outside of the questionable future that exists for that country. to step and think about this the way that I would think about. why any patient would come to see me big question being why now? the way that I wanna wrap my brain around this happened now, I think we have to look at what's been happening over the last year, six months, three months, and say, okay. Why does this make sense to have happened now? because we've been doing it hopefully our listeners, all tens of some familiarity family systems theory. I think we've been using that as a good analogy and I think it nicely this scenario. I wanna say is that this, political system as it stands today really resembles that high anxiety family and if we it down. We have our executive branch Which would be our over functioning parent attempting to manage anxiety through dominance We have our legislative branch, which is the paralyzed anxious not doing anything have the public and I and everyone else are just emotionally flooded of the system. we have this narrative. the narrative been for the last several years really, but even in the last few months, how has the narrative shifted within this system to allow this to happen? really the foreshadowing of it, there were definitely signs that this might have happened. mean, we were attacking quote unquote, narco terrorists off the coast of months without. clear reason beyond that they were somehow trafficking our we know they weren't. they really were trafficking cocaine in, in all fairness, probably not a significant percentage of cocaine is coming from Venezuela as much as from other countries. So what were we doing? This may be some foreshadowing, but our system has been held together. at least in the last few months under this idea that tariffs will protect you, the economy is strong, corruption will be exposed through the Epstein files and just trust the plan. bones family system doesn't require that narrative to be true. This is just what was being sold and just needs to be coherent enough hold the anxiety of the whole system all that was holding the anxiety why escalate to this next step? Rob (10:12) yeah, coherent enough. is another thing that has struck me, just recently is that, these stories don't have to actually hold water under, when we scrutinize the stories, they start to fray, really quickly. that's not really the point. The point they just. have to be plausible enough that it allows our anxiety to reduce so that we don't actually pick them apart. We don't scrutinize them. But the scrutiny, about boat attacks and the questionable nature of them, but I'm stepping back and from this process where we started off these took control much larger The story of narco-terrorism was plausible enough that we didn't necessarily have to pick at it. And really what it's to is this arc in which we started off attacking these boats, then we started taking boats. And now we have invaded a country and stolen their head of state and he's not a good guy. this is part of this process is that because he's not a good guy, some people, many people, maybe even most people are going to start off with that, that he's not a good guy. And the story then falls into behind that. But that's really not the point. That's kind of the end state. The end state is he's not a good guy. Okay. we're talking about David (11:37) more simplification when nuance is the reality. Rob (11:41) absolutely. So what we're talking about is this arc that was built to basically get to this point. we go back months and months and months when we started attacking these boats, that was instrumental to get to this point. And it's only the arc of time that you can see the was not a thing in and of itself. That was a thing that was building on a thing, which built on a thing, which led to this moment. there's going to be moments to come, but you know, why, why did we ultimately do this? Why are we ultimately, as was said in a press conference yesterday, why are we in charge of Venezuela now? And how's that going to look? How's that going to play out? What's that mean to the people of Venezuela, the 30 million folks And why, silent about it all the way up? this whole arc. And it does absolutely, it fits very well with Bowen family systems in how families can see When you're inside the family, you don't necessarily see it, but this progression of events that lead badness, just remain silent because that's what works for the system at that moment. David (12:52) now question, which asking myself or kind of poking around, if we use that Bowen family we look at a couple of things that have the last few think One is that there was this narrative failure on the economics related to the tariffs. promise was that there was going to be these tariffs, protection, lower prices for everybody. the reality has been higher grocery bills for people and no clear as to how. the tariffs are going to somehow bring in more money. that's been a question since they were brought up for a lot of reasons. I'm not an economist, so I can't get into the weeds on it because I just can't, but. The idea of using tariffs to bring in. More. revenue by moving manufacturing back into the country doesn't hold a lot of water for a few reasons, but one being that if you're using the tariffs to bring manufacturing back into the country, then there won't be tariffs on the things that are being made in the country. Therefore, you're not going to make a lot more money off of those items. but also the fact that a lot of the things that we bring into the country, we can't actually produce in our country, or at least not in a reasonable timeframe to actually make the manufacturing feasible within the country. And so there's a lot of in that argument. So as the wheels start coming off of that narrative, anxiety starts to go up, especially if you're the one pushing the argument. Now, the other one being, failure of the moral narrative, which was the Epstein files. We've been watching that play out for a while, but the promise was that there was going to be this exposure of all these Democrats, that there was going to be a moral reckoning. We were going to get them. And outcome was that there's been delay. There's been ambiguity about it. There's been a lot of procedural fog. hasn't played out the way that it was said it was going to play out. even to the point that the leader was attacking anybody who wanted to see them after promising to show them to everybody. and so you have this moral breach at this point where there's a lot of shame. and displacement happening in this particular narrative. And when we think about Why now? I think it makes a lot of sense. We talked about it last week. The trust in the government is at an all-time low. So what do you do? What happens at that point? And I think that's just a piece of the puzzle, I think Rob (15:20) we reel back in the arc of came in hot. They had bucket load of they pretty simplistic solutions to pretty complex problems. They haven't worked out quite like one would if you're on that side of the aisle, you, would hope they worked out and they did start to fail after, you know, about six months of doing this, there was that sense that, doge is not working. Like we thought it would, we thought, there were all this. waste and abuse that was perpetrated by the Democrats and we were going to come in and we're going to find trillions of dollars in savings. And as it turned out, they just didn't in the ramifications the cuts that they made really are going to come in the months and years down the line. So that didn't work. The immigration thing which had incredible public support, but the way it was implemented, how it's played out, it's not necessarily worked like they expected it would. So it does strike me that, very much like our Avatar episode some time back, that there was a need find something else. Now, I guess what I'm really interested in is like, Maduro makes a decent bad guy just on the basis of his behaviors, what he's done. again, certainly not a good guy. I'm not going to lionize the guy. But there are a lot of bad guys around the world. And in fact, President Trump just recently pardoned a bad guy. a guy who, you know, absolutely was engaged in the narcotics trade. Speaking of, I want your opinion on this. This is a divergence. Narcoterrorism. Help me define what narcoterrorism means. David (17:08) want me to define. don't know that I've accepted it, but I think as a country, what you're saying right now goes back to what I've been harping on for quite some which is that if you say something crazy enough at the end of your sentence, people will ignore the first part of the sentence. Rob (17:08) Because we've accepted it. What we. The. We've accepted it. Ha David (17:26) and just accept it as reality. again, I think this is one of Trump's superpowers that you just have start off word, Narco terrorist, then start talking about 600, 700, 800, % off of prescription prices. And people jump to the Does that mean that when I go and pick up my Metformin that they're going to pay me to use it? And they ignore the narco terrorist part. Rob (17:54) when you take narco, which means drugs, and terrorism, and you smash it together, then you get like double bad. know, terrorism is bad. Narcotics are bad. Smash it together. this is really bad. But, know, fundamentally, terrorism is a thing. Terrorism is utilizing force, aggression. violence and harm in order to make a political point and induce fear. Narcotics, anything related to that is about selling drugs to people who want to buy drugs. And smashing them together, it doesn't actually work that narco terrorism, they're not utilizing this to induce or harm. And to make a political point they're making a buck Because there's a market for there's always been a market for it and you know Hey folks, there's always gonna be a market for it So, you know the whole narco terrorism thing in and of itself the fact that we just swallowed that word bought it Accepted it that all the major news outlets utilize it Narco terrorism Narco terrorism I probably heard Narco terrorism 80 times today alone and nobody stopped to say, the fuck is Narco terrorism? No one said this. So here we are, Narco terrorism. And we have now invaded a country, abducted their head of state in the name of terminology. David (19:12) So. Rob (19:19) And he's going to be narco terrorism is what they said. David (19:19) We'll see. is in title 21 of the US code, the DOJ uses it in where they typically use it. It's when drug trafficking conducted with the intent to fund support or advance terrorist activity or violence intended to influence government or civilian populations through drug related activity. And I think you already said it. Does it really apply? to what these guys are doing, which is trying to make a buck selling cocaine. Well, they made a lot every boat sunk, they make even more money because they can just jack up the prices of the other is that money being used terroristic purposes? not an attorney. I have no legal background. Rob (19:47) they made a lot of bucks, I'm sure. Absolutely. David (20:03) know, but if that's the definition, is that what's my prediction will be, this is gonna be a real stretch when they actually bring him to face charges. And the DOJ, unfortunately, recently hasn't had the best of luck as far as actually getting all this stuff put through because they have the tendency to this particular charge may not fully apply to Monroe and his wife. Now don't know how his wife is involved at all, but here she comes. Rob (20:21) be amateurs. she's coming. David (20:31) it does describe illusory truth of spoken about it before we see this all the time. In fact, think, again, another superpower when you repeat something over and over again, there's this bias. Your brain cannot help but to perceive something as being more and more true. Regardless of accuracy, the more you hear something, Rob (20:52) stepping back. what I guess I keep getting struck, by is from a human standpoint. And this is not from a podcaster standpoint that every time something crazy happens, I think, this is But from a human standpoint, it's all. confusing to the point in which I just end up having to disregard it. It's a thing that's happening that I can't control, I might not understand, I can't even invest it. So I just bring it in. I've brought narco-terrorism into my brain. And now it's a thing. And when say kind of have a sense of what they mean. fact that destroying boats filled with humans, killing them. Okay, it's a thing. I brought it into myself. I accept it now. This is what we do. I would be curious how many boats are actually still making it through though. You present it now have a impermeable membrane the Entirely of the Caribbean and I tend to think that's probably false I also think every time he says each boat kills 25,000 I start doing the math and I'm like, holy if if 25,000 Americans died every time a boat came through we'd be down to like a population of nothing by now. I've accepted it though. David (22:10) Yeah, numbers really line number of fatalities related to drugs going now they've been going down but they are down. mean, they're still too high for don't think that's up for Rob (22:17) significantly. Mm-hmm. David (22:26) Is this the method them down? reality is is the driver of most deaths or things tainted with fentanyl. fentanyl is typically or moved in the United States through Mexico using that is from China. we're not blowing up their boats. cause they're not using them, A question is, yeah. cocaine is coming from Venezuela, other countries in much greater numbers. So, the idea of blowing up boats to trafficking. Rob (22:46) to blow up shit they ain't using. Yeah. David (22:57) is the figurative equivalent of you waving your left hand to slap your brother with your right. And I think we've all been slapped a whole bunch of times well, and and I the big right hand was Maduro, right? Was taking Maduro. But the question then is, well, are we triangulating Venezuela? Rob (23:05) we keep following for it, like he did, because he's an idiot. David (23:16) guess is that for triangulation to really work, need some things. You need to have something that's symbolically bad, emotionally distant, check, check, structurally weak. I mean, we flew right into their country and took their that doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in their defense, but especially that they knew we were doing it. narratively flexible. think, Jack, definitely a narrative that's being pushed forth still. And then idea of being restoring a sense of control. Well, I don't know if you watched the press conference, but there was, especially Marco Rubio, if you listen to anything that he said, he said, president, When he says something, he means it, he's gonna do it. Everybody be on the lookout. He's coming. and I think that was it. I mean, that was the, we're gonna get in control of a narrative and we're gonna do this. family systems theory triangulation. this parent's not doing anything. These people are anxious or anxious. Let's do something to try to regain some level of control. Just because it's not working, mean it's Rob (24:17) I did watch the press conference I got lost in the information because I was so, taken aback by how much, Hegseth and, Rubio, much time they spent, stroking the ego of our dear leader. it was striking. meetings. Yeah. it was in my half century of recall a time where an activity engaged in by the government had to be tied to the greatness of the leader. David (24:31) It's surprising. Have you watched any of meetings? Yeah. Rob (24:49) that usually it was, we did this because it was necessary, had nothing to do with the quality of the leader. It wasn't used for self aggrandizement. In this case, absolutely all about self aggrandizement. However, set that aside. That was just striking to me. David (25:07) Sure, easy to set take that and we're just that under the rug. We'll ignore the fact 17 % trust rating in our government followed by the verbal fallation of our a press conference after dozens of people put their lives at risk to do something. Sure, ignore that, ignore that. Rob (25:11) well I- You know, David (25:27) Just ignore that, Robbie, don't worry about that for shit. Rob (25:27) better part of that press conference, by the way, to our tens of listeners, if you can YouTube this press conference. So you can't see Hegseth through much of the press conference. You can see Rubio. Rubio is right the camera. I have never seen someone struggle to not roll their eyes and to look less bored. than Rubio, he really was struggling to get through some of the stuff that was being said. All right, let's set it aside. And unfortunately, I think this is part of it, and I'm going to get to this. The concept collective dissociation is where I'm rolling toward. aside for a moment. ultimately the question that we're faced with right now is, why, why Venezuela? Why not any other country that is led by a bad guy? Argentina. How about that? But no, we're, as thieves with Why Venezuela? Why now? how much of this lead constructed purely to get to this point. And it certainly feels everything that's been done in the last three or four months has to point. You got to lay the groundwork. And they did it. they did it in such a way that we're all just like, meh, all right, yeah, this is what we do now. This is normal. David (26:48) it's twofold. target been working on that for a few months, The boats, narco terrorism, labeling all of these things. perfect target. You have all the things I said. They have a leader. a villain. who did steal last election. you know that the populace doesn't love the guy. a dictator. done some awful things. but they're also sitting on top oil reserves being fully like oil. the why question of Venezuela is easier than the why now, do it at a The weather wasn't great. it was really difficult why do it at that time? well things aren't working out so well for this administration at the moment he needed a win and now got some kind of win and Potentially you got a whole bunch of oil now how people are gonna think about taking other countries' oil and selling it is questionable. But I don't know that this administration has ever shown lot of long-term thinking in that way. And frankly, maybe people like it. Rob (27:50) suppose that ends up being in realm. What has really struck me is that this relatively enormous thing. This is a big deal. How many times in the history of our nation have we invaded another nation, leader? this is aside from whether he deserved I'm making no calls morality of this individual. But this is an enormous thing. It really feels like no one feels it. it struck me just how, I saw the news. I saw the event the other morning at like five in the morning whenever I get up and, you know, kind of shrugged my shoulders and like, yeah, we do that. whatever. moved on as I have thought about it, how much it has not impacted me. here's the factors. It was surgical. So to my knowledge, no US soldiers killed. Now, I think there were some that were injured. There's some hints that there were some injuries. They haven't really talked about them at all. bloodless as far as the population is concerned. It happened, it was successful, and it ended. So with that structure, we don't even have to think about structured in such a way as humans to think about things that are problems that we have to deal with, we have to manage, we have to engage in. And this is not one that really presents with those sharp edges we do something about this. psychological tendency is to take it because it doesn't have sharp edges. No one died. It's over. We got him. He's on his way here. We can then just sort of dissociate emotionally from the event. and not treat it like it was a massive deal. this is the kind of thing that like in the history of the doesn't happen. You don't invade a sovereign nation and steal their head of state. I don't know how many times this has happened. I know of Noriega in Panama, we did that. And I know this one. There may be others. I don't know. I'll have that. David (29:56) it's, sure it happens, I think the rarity here is holding a press conference saying that, yeah, we did that. country that we are not actively engaged in a war with. just met with Putin not long ago. They could have know, had him show up and close the door and be like, you're not leaving. Just kidding. Hang out. We didn't do that. so it's a big deal. but it's overwhelming. I think there's this overwhelmingness to it. Rob (30:13) Snatched his ass. David (30:23) as you watch a car accident occur, it's so surreal. what just happened in front of me, and you're not really sure how to now. In your defense, and everybody else's this happened on a Saturday. happened when even news channels are picking it up. They haven't really gone deep into I think it's gonna take a little bit of it hasn't people as significance of what just occurred. what struck me watching it was what wasn't being said in the press conference. that's what is gonna be down over the coming days and weeks yeah. Rob (31:01) it. The premature closure it's presented like this happened, it's over, we're done. know, yes, we didn't get a say, we didn't vote on this, we didn't get to say, you know, go, no go. And, you know, there's a lot of decisions the reality of them. They have to be made in the immediacy. But invading another country, in stealing their head of state does strike me as something maybe should have got some, at least if we're following the norms of our nation, should have buy in by, you know, I don't know, the legislative branch that is supposed to authorize war, et cetera. also a scale mismatch abstract power bypasses the nervous system. is the exertion of power on a scale that we as humans can't even begin to imagine. there's habituation we have been subjected to repeated norm violations. The norms have been broken over and over and over again. So we're just not even remotely to norm violations. And this is a violation of a norm. Again, I'm not making moral judgment here that, you know, whether Maduro is a bad guy, whether he deserved this, whether good in the grand scheme. I'm not even trying. What I'll say is, is that it incredible deviation from the norms nations are supposed to act. And, you know, international law that says Don't go kidnap heads of state. Don't attack other nations. going to fall back to, we did this for drugs 25,000 Americans with each boatload, which is utterly, utterly statistic of how many people die per year of drug overdoses. per boat, there's no basis in reality. But they'll say this was self-protection, that this was national defense. And it's just not. David (33:00) Well, there's a built And there, there's a built in narrative that comes from even challenging narrative, is what you like drugs. You like people dying from drugs it's a straw man argument, but it is definitely going to be used. It's been used a dare you question blowing up these boats? What is it? Would you just like people trafficking drugs? And it's just, no, no. But the nuance. is what is trying to scream and it's being silenced. And that is that, we have our laws. We don't do these things because our laws say that we don't kill drug traffickers. We can arrest them. actually have the Coast does have Customs and Border billions of dollars to be able to do more of that. We have the mechanisms to do these things in the American way. And as you're saying, we've just been ignoring our own quite a while. goes a because this is starting to get into the territory or has already been in the territory of violating our own laws. We're just doing it outside of a jurisdiction where our laws really apply. Rob (34:02) why I'm mostly concerned about this. And we see this in psychotherapy is that, you know, patients come to us living in very abnormal environments, but they've been habituated to those environments to the point they're no longer aware. know, how many times have you sat with a patient that tells you something that is utterly inexcusable, utterly over the top, and they tell it in a voice that is just so deadpan and like normal. This is a thing. yeah, a lot. And that's what struck me this morning. And it took me actually David (34:34) all the time. Rob (34:40) you know, most of the day to process it, that I am so untouched by this emotionally, and fundamentally what it came down to for me, I've been habituated to these rule violations and I was like, ⁓ this is a yet another rule violation. That part didn't stick with me. It just was a thought that I had. And then the way I immediately justified it in my mind is There's no blood. There was no cost to us. Now, was there blood? Yeah, I'm going to guess good number of Venezuelans died in action. That'd be my guess. No one's mentioning it. No one's saying, you 800 Venezuelans died or 1,000 died or whatever the number is. But I find it hard to believe that this was a bloodless event the grand scheme, but there is no American blood spilled. I just don't have a somatic anchor to this. become habituated to this nonsense. no longer the way I would have year ago. or certainly two years, three years. And I'm gonna guess, I mean, I'm gonna assume I'm average Joe, since I'm average in every other way, that most Americans hear this, and move on. And that is a collective dissociation, that this is a big deal. David (35:59) Go. it is. And I not wrong. I think most people won't affect them. They may not even know about and if they hear about it, would have to look it Was Maduro a good guy? Was he a bad guy? he Democrat or Republican? And when they figure out that he's neither, um, they won't know how to feel about it. Right? Yeah. They won't. Yeah. Rob (36:18) Was he red or blue? If he was red, no, that's a problem. If he's blue... David (36:23) Well, I they realized all presidents in the last decade, not liked him, maybe they'll be, whatever. But what I thought was striking about the conference was wasn't brought up. And I do think people need to. Maybe pay attention to that because what wasn't said was there was no discussion of a restoration of democracy. There was no about any new election timelines, no limits to sovereignty of their nation or any international consent. worry that what was said was we're going to control their country. we are going to stabilize their country. We are. and there was a lot of talk about oil and infrastructure and that surprised me. That that felt like, Rob (37:10) saying the quiet part out loud? David (37:13) 100 % yeah there was no attempt whatsoever hide the Venezuela are to rebuild their oil infrastructure so that we can use it there was a lot of discussion about reparations for American companies that had been kicked out of Venezuela when the regime took over and created their own oil companies. That was brought up specifically along with we're going to mine their oil, we're going to sell their oil, and it's going to help them, but it's also going to help us. other piece, which makes sense psychologically, when the narratives that have been failing have failed that we've already spoken about the economic narrative is filled. The moral narrative is failed. you need something tangible to hold onto Oil is one of asset, you lose the plot, you grab the furniture. Rob (38:07) as I was watching it, it struck me that saying we are now going to run Venezuela. And it was said with that exact wording multiple times. What was left out is how? How are we sending folks in? we on the phone with them? Are we telling them this is what going to do? are we going to in the ocean with our incredible fleet that been arranged there and just say, do what we want you to do or we're going to you. the thing. When something like this becomes procedural, I think that's when we need to start to worry. David (38:43) this is just another example of an administration that is really hot on simplicity really cold on nuance. because clarify there was a question of the president as to who would be running the country. And was an answer that alluded to. Marco Rubio, Pete Hegseth, General Kane, along with a very supportive Delci Rodriguez, was the vice president. And now apparently per them had been sworn in as president. The issue here is that since that was said, Rodriguez has come out and said, Rob (39:08) vice president. David (39:19) No, this was an illegal attack on our country and we are not going to just do whatever you say. there's nuance to running a country like ours and certainly like theirs remotely. there's certainly questionable perspectives on what's going to happen. Another question was posed. Hey, Are you going to country over to the opposition leader who was actually quite supportive of afar had been like tweeting about it or something, some shit on social media, like, yay, this is the time for coming or whatever. We're going to take the country back. by won the election in 2024, like 67 % or something, or, maybe it was a higher 76 or 67. Rob (39:56) Yes. Yes. David (40:00) Six, seven, I don't know, like that's stuck in head. Yeah. 70 something percent. And was part of the reason given to justify this action was that this Maduro was a bad guy had stolen this election. So we're justified in taking him. but when the question came up, is she going to run the country? The answer was no, because she doesn't have the support. Rob (40:00) It was 70-ish. David (40:23) of the people to run the country. I'm a gentleman, Robbie. You know that. I am a gentleman. I... Yeah. Rob (40:28) That, you know, I have described you to many people and gentlemen is always the way I describe you. 10 pounds of shit in a five pound bag. That's the other. Yeah. David (40:34) always Absolutely. But so I'm not going to point out that a 70 plus win higher something victories. of most of our presidents in all 70 plus percent lot of I'm gonna point that out. I'm not gonna point that out because I think that's rude. I think it's rude to use numbers to just yeah, it's just not nice. Especially if you take especially if you take in like the percentage of the voting population and then you like do the math on that and it's more like 23 % but I'm gonna do those but but Rob (41:02) It's rude. Right. Don't use data. Facts. David (41:16) Which which if you add 23 % to the 50 almost gets you to % that she had but that's right I wouldn't bring that up because I'm a gentleman Rob (41:20) 70%. Yeah. I agree, which brings me back to, you know, 10 pounds of shit in a five pound bag. David (41:29) I'm a gentleman. just saying. Rob (41:30) Yeah, that's when we boil you down, you're a gentleman. David (41:34) Yeah. I think our show can be helpful. Maybe. Rob (41:37) That's good, because I would love to be helpful. Our tens of listeners, our niche audience, stand by, folks, because David is now telling you we're going to help you. David (41:40) I would We're going to be And I'm going to be useful way. I mean, that's a problem. We'll be helpful. Will it mean anything? No. In fact, I'm going full mode Like get into some predictions. if we use the let's use bone family systems let's use the rules of Rob (41:56) Okay. David (42:04) triangulation escalates unless differentiation returns. You've even said it. This hasn't really triggered much for you. So is probably gonna provide temporary anxiety relief the administration, temporary, if any, but it's gonna provide, hey, we did something. Which means that. Unresolved anxiety drive the search for next third point so we got to triangulate again more than likely Rob (42:30) Mm-hmm. David (42:30) our future targets? Rob (42:31) Canada? No, no, no, no. David (42:32) You think Canada? No, no, think we could break it down into tiers. but in my tier one, think it's a close toss I'm going to go with what I'm going Marco Rubio specifically called members of the government of this Number one to me is Cuba. flat out said, if I was member of their government, I would be worried. said that press conference. I think Cuba is probably high on the list of being a third triangulation Low empathy cost, most people don't. probably care, you can make a pretty good argument that we're helping those people out. Number be Iran. that we've already attacked them and Iran's an interesting country anyway, because nobody seems to like Iran in the Middle East. So there's some level of safety to that. Rob (43:10) particularly now. They did not. David (43:20) Yeah, Rob (43:21) Yeah. David (43:21) but it would be huge. It'd be a lot of grandiosity to it. It'd be enormous. And then we could, you know, claim global dominance. Those are my tier Rob (43:25) Yeah. Well, and for our tens of listeners, Shia. And the rest of the Middle East, barring a certain percentage of Iraq, are Sunni. they take that very, very seriously. But yeah, Iran is not a popular actor among the other Arab states. you, when you think about the Arab states, and you think about them being a unified definitely are not. There's an incredible amount. no, those two are reasonable, Cuba and Iran. You know, what I keep thinking about is also from family systems is once something happens, it sets a precedence within the family and then it becomes a norm. And from David (43:52) No. No. Rob (44:09) international standpoint, with the international family, we've just set a precedence, which is, hey, it's okay to go into a foreign nation, a sovereign nation, and do what you want if you have the power to do so now, what does that say to Russia? What does that say to China, specifically for It says a lot. We now have set up the social norm, the social contract. This is okay. And, if China would say, decide to attack Taiwan and kidnap their leader, which I doubt they would kidnap their leader. They'll just attack Taiwan to take Taiwan. But if they were to choose that, we have no moral high ground. We have no basis to say, that's wrong. Now, will we? Yeah, probably. David (44:55) Yeah, it's cute that you think that we are at a position to where we would give a shit about being hypocrites at this point, cute, cute. Drink to Drink to your cuteness there, Robbie. Rob (45:02) Very true. Very true. Well, I would, but I'm out of coffee. David (45:09) bringing Russia and China, think those are, those are our two countries, not even North Korea, to be honest, countries triangulated used for triangulation, but more, I think what you just in of a third party way where we until they do something in response to what we just then use them. as more of a bad guy than they already are, but in all fairness to talking about norms, Russia already invaded Ukraine. we've sort of accepted that. And I think even this, this administration has gone back and forth, but they've suggested several times to just give them the land they took to just end the war, which Rob (45:44) Mm-hmm. David (45:47) I think was Russia's, that was their peace plan, wasn't it? Was just give us, just go ahead and give up what we took and all will be well. what moral high ground have they had? They haven't had a lot of moral high ground. Rob (45:58) you know, the moral high ground is not a place that they've actually climbed to. So you gotta, you gotta climb your ass up the hill in order to have the moral high ground. know, Donald Trump's not a man that wants to climb a hill. David (46:10) I don't think Donald Trump's the guy who gives a shit about the moral high ground because he doesn't see it as morality as much as the ability to just make a and. Rob (46:17) think it's venus stasis actually that's really getting in the way of him climbing the You know, he likes very thin, thin blood apparently is what I've heard. David (46:23) Anyway, no, the, the that's right. He does. And now the last piece, the last tier two or three. I think those are like Russia, China. Those were more like tier two. Like we might, they might go after them, but only after they've done something and, know, because we just something, I think tier three, which is honestly more, what is already happening is the you know, going after courts, universities, journalists, immigrants. I think those are the things where they're already, they're already doing that. Yeah, it's already something. But the question is what extent, because started with the exception of immigrants. haven't gone full bore, there's more they could do they needed to push a narrative further. Rob (46:52) Done, check, check, and check. David (47:08) are kind of like the low grade targets to try to ease some anxiety, at least on their part, and any failures that they're having. Rob (47:15) I was just going to say, back to Avatar episode. This fits, this fits. it's a display of power. It's a spectacle. It's, you know, it's me waving my left hand so I can slap my brother with my right hand. He never caught on folks. so those of you who might know my brother, you should probably bring it up to him that, you know, why, why, why didn't we catch this? How many times do you, you fall for that? and I'll tell you every time that that's how many times every have a speculation, I'm a full fledged adult. And so is he, I have a speculation that I could pull that off to this day. could wave my left hand and slap him. David (47:45) Fool shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on you. Rob (47:56) And he would still fall for it. so this is in keeping with the the avatar cracking. It's a display of strength and it will. David (48:04) It's not It's not It's a display of attempt for strength. It's compensation. It's that it is not strength. Rob (48:11) Hegseth and Rubio, as they were stroking, I won't say what they were stroking. When they were playing toward Trump's ego, and I'm, I am way too erudite and way too much of a gentleman really, is really what comes down to, to tell you what they truly were stroking at that moment. all I can say is they needed a towel. afterward. They just, they, they needed a towel. No doubt. they had to wipe up after, were trying to make him feel strong powerful. it was a little nauseating, maybe a lot nauseating. It was a little distressing to me. I don't want a leader who needs Someone to stroke them to be powerful. You are powerful by where you're at right now this position is powerful and if somebody needs to tell you it's powerful That means you just need reassurance it's scary to me. It's it's frightening. It's not a leader That fall into combat David (49:08) No, this would be somebody who's constantly reaching out to you and saying like, me. sure? And eventually, you know, you're like, no, no, no, we're done. Yeah, we're done now. No, the warning, though, is that unchecked Rob (49:13) Do you love Not anymore. don't know. I did. Yeah. Yeah. I'm tired. David (49:26) over-functioning that we're seeing leads to escalation. leads to boundary erosion, brittleness of that authority. Relief is temporary. This is going to cause temporary relief while the news cycle doesn't really latch onto it to the extent that it's going to. We haven't heard the Magi side of this at all. And really wonder going to take this because what you're left with is you attack the country. questionable legal authority. You took their leader and then you said, going to run the country from afar. I don't know that MAGA going to be cool with that. just, Rob (50:02) neocon arm of MAGA will be okay. The true America first MAGA is it's gonna... David (50:10) the question was posed, how is this an America first agenda? the response was, well, we need good neighbors. Rob (50:18) whale. David (50:18) Well, that's the real answer, but we need good neighbors and I'm just not sure if we look at a map, they're our neighbor. Rob (50:27) It's a stretch. It's a stretch. Yeah. David (50:31) it's a weird map, but anxiety always returns. And I think that's, that's the gist of it is that this was, man, this was just another step. This was another crossing of a boundary. after countless, countless, mean, just, yeah, thousands upon thousands of it. this isn't foreign policy. It's a family system that lost the story and reached for. Rob (50:42) Add it to the list. David (50:50) control. Rob (50:51) Yes. Yes, and we're so habituated to it, we're just numb. the kids that are just so accustomed to the craziness between mom and dad that it doesn't even affect us anymore. We absorb it, we don't process it, we just file it away. And that's what we're doing. We're filing it away, one more thing, and moving forward. And here's my question to you. Do you have any prescriptions this week? David (51:19) Yes, I do. Rob (51:20) I only have one. Stop doing bad shit. We have to stop doing bad shit. there is a thing such as honor, integrity. is the rule of law. There are norms and we have to follow them. Whether we like it or not, whether it serves our emotional purposes or not, we have to follow them because, you know, I'm again going to fall back to Jim Jefferies. We live in a society people, there are rules to this society and in order to maintain the society that we actually love, that brings us comfort and security, we have to be members of that society. David (51:58) I'm pretty sure Jim Jeffries stole that from George Costanza, but I'm just gonna leave it there and leave it there. when you hear claim repeated everywhere, write it down once, say it out loud, and then ask yourself, do I believe this because it's true or because I've heard it 12 times today? Rob (52:02) Maybe. Maybe. David (52:15) trying to fight the illusory truth effect. Rob (52:17) me wax eloquent on illusory truth effect. So I mentioned some episodes ago that my son came to me and said, did you hear that Charlie Kirk's wife's pregnant? And, she's eight weeks pregnant and he died 12 weeks ago. he said, and then they think it's JD Vance's, and when I. just a tacit like, Hey, do you think that's true? And he's like, well, I heard it like 30 times today, but here's the fascinating part to me. And I actually brought this up to him this morning is that it didn't come to pass. She is not pregnant. this is, was not reality. However, that part, it just slipped out of his mind. There was no follow up to it. So. How many things that we end up accepting as true that later are false, but then we don't change our behaviors or our thought processes about it. So I tried to make a point and it was completely lost. David (53:10) Any explanation that requires a villain? A savior in a silent third party? It's probably a triangle. Triangles stabilize anxiety temporarily, but they never solve the underlying problem. So if the solution is requiring someone else to hold all of the badness, keep looking. not the solution. and maybe my favorite. Does this explanation make sense after two fingers bourbon? If it still holds up, great. If it collapses into vibes, slogans, and confidence cosplay, put the glass down. You're being managed, not informed. Rob (53:34) hahahaha ⁓ That's the truth. And there's a lot of managing going on right now. David (53:47) I've had a few fingers of bourbon for sure, and this still doesn't make sense to me. So I think. I think it's not real. Rob (53:49) Yeah. No. David (53:53) thank you to everybody who has joined us for season two. So excited. ⁓ we still need help sharing this show. So we know we're niche. We know we're somewhat controversial in this episode, but maybe annoying. Yeah. I'm always that I've known that for years. Rob (53:57) Episode one, season two. It's a little bit annoying. We know this. David (54:13) of you. my god so much but please share us subscribe to us like us write a nice comment Rob (54:14) Your wife tells you every day. Tell your friends. of mouth works. David (54:24) We are growing, slowly, but we some growth. to do some changes over the maybe get us a little bigger, we wanna help. Hopefully we're helping. If we're helping, us Send us a email at socials at thanks for joining us. Robbie, anything else? Rob (54:41) I got nothing man, I'm done. David (54:43) All right. we're out. next time.