You Were Never One of Us

David (00:00) Maybe you've seen this happen. somebody in your group says one thing out of line and suddenly the response isn't I disagree with you. It's you are never one of us. That's a very different move. Because once disagreement threatens belonging, contempt starts doing useful work. It tells everyone who is still inside, who's outside, and what emotion you are expected to display if you want to stay. The problem is that a group can keep proving its purity right up until there's almost nobody left in it. This is shrink the nation. Let's go. David (01:09) All right, hey, welcome back to Shrink the Nation. I'm David. I am a psychiatrist. I have twenty years of military experience and as YouTube is figuring out, I do a little bit of gaming too. And I think it might be pissing people off, but to be honest, I don't fucking care, Robbie. I have a good time doing Rob (01:24) Mm-hmm. David (01:25) it. I've been talking to people. I've been trying to get a lot of political perspectives and within the game just to see what people are like. And what I'm finding is that you know who likes to respond to me when I'm doing quick play roll cues in Overwatch, asking political questions. Canadians like to talk about their politics. And as it turns out, Alberta. There's stuff going on in Alberta. I guess they want to secede from their country because they have a lot of oil something. So it's really interesting. But there you go. Rob (01:54) hey everyone. I'm not from Alberta. it's Rob, board certified psychiatrist. lot of years military service, a lot of years in psychiatry. and I'm just along for the ride with this guy. So let's see where this goes. David (02:08) Just having fun. I am drinking coffee though today. this is too early in the morning to be drinking bourbon, unfortunately, but lots and lots of coffee. I call this my Ameriquadro because Rob (02:19) Technically it's early enough that you could just say it's late enough to be drinking bourbon where you're at. David (02:26) That's true. I guess if I had started several hours ago and I was continuing Rob (02:30) Right. David (02:30) it, it would be okay. you start doing the mental gymnastics on making it okay to drink this Rob (02:35) Yeah. David (02:35) early in the morning without continuing previous drinking. it's just more of a problem than anything else. But yeah. Rob (02:40) It's probably a warning sign. Yeah, it's probably a warning sign. So David (02:44) Mm-hmm. Rob (02:44) I am drinking Black Rifle Company bourbon flavored coffee. I recommend it. It's a light roast coffee with just a a hint of sweetness that I guess is an homage to bourbon. It doesn't necessarily hit you quite like bourbon does, but it has a flavor. David (03:01) that sounds like the coffee for somebody who does have a problem. And but that problem is it's Rob (03:04) Ha ha ha David (03:07) a mega darling company. And so here you are drinking coffee from Black Rifle Company whilst bashing Rob (03:12) I am. David (03:15) their Lord and Savior, Donald Janky Pants Trump. Rob (03:18) their politics set aside, my allegiance to them as soldiers, no pun intended, trumps my disagreement with their politics. David (03:26) Fair enough. actually speaking of which, there was a story that came out and I'm going to take off my psychiatrist app for just a second, as if I ever wear it. so apparently Target got into a bit of trouble for Having a child's Halloween costume. Did you see this? Did you see the costume? Rob (03:42) You read that. I did. Apparently. I have not seen the costume, but apparently it it it well David (03:47) it's we will post it, yeah. Rob (03:49) for our tens of listeners, if you're not news junkies like David and I, Target got in trouble because they had a Halloween costume, a kid's Halloween costume that was designed to glow under a black light, which probably would have been kind of cool in the right environment. It came out when there was no black light, it looked like blackface. and they got in trouble, they apologized, they pulled it. Story over. David (04:15) I think it's yeah, I don't know that it's story over, is the problem. I think you need to see the costume. Once you see the costume I think you'll understand why it was such a problem. Rob (04:24) Well, you'd best send it to me. David (04:26) too. You gotta you have to see the costume. this is one of those things where if you don't acknowledge the actual problem that we're seeing, you'll understand Okay, I just sent it to you. What's your reaction? Rob (04:36) So my. So David (04:37) Rob's live reaction to what this costume actually looks like in the picture. Rob (04:42) my. David (04:42) Yeah, this is this is one of those things where I don't know that it was like, it was a cute little sounding costume. This was a somebody either saw this or didn't see this in green lit a costume that is so atrocious that there's really no excuse. Like the culture that exists within a company to allow this to even show up on your website in your store. Rob (05:05) So from the neck down, not a problem. it just looks like a clown's outfit. it is from the neck up that we run into some issues and it is absolutely a throwback to certain tropes that probably were common in the early part of the nineteen hundreds. as a kid who grew up in the seventies, who still can vividly recall some of the cartoons that were throwbacks from an earlier time that still were playing on TV, these are the kinds of tropes that often depicted African Americans from the neck up at least. David (05:40) there's nothing okay about this. I I would say do not yeah. Rob (05:40) Yes, you j you just you you nailed it there. David (05:44) there's nothing okay about this. to me this shows a huge blind spot in Target and I don't think apology is enough on that. I think this is a people need to get fired, like Somebody needs a a loser job, unfortunately, because these aren't the ideas that we want to have coming from our company if you can't look at this and think, wow, this is really not okay, maybe you shouldn't be the one making those decisions. Like this is just not for you. Rob (06:08) I'm going to bet whoever greenlit this was someone who is younger than forty years old. David (06:14) Yeah, I guess that would be you're in the wrong job there, champ. if you i yeah. I that's yeah, that would just be like, Hey, Rob (06:17) W no, no. May and maybe maybe David (06:22) I'm sorry, but not the right job. Rob (06:23) I'm just saying that someone of my age or older would absolutely have looked at that and immediately had callbacks to yeah. So I'm just gonna guess. This this was a David (06:32) Yeah. I Rob (06:34) this was a younger person that did this. David (06:36) I about spit out my coffee when I saw that the first time. So this will definitely be on our website. David (06:41) Speaking of websites that could really use a decent copy editor. David (06:45) you know how I like to cook, Robbie. you know I'm a big fan of Rob (06:46) You do, you do. And and David (06:49) the cooking. Rob (06:49) for the audience, David is an excellent cook. and he bakes a little too. So he's a man of many many talents, you know, many talents. David (06:55) I do, yeah. So I I do like to cook more than I like to bake, but I do enjoy cooking. I came across a news article on my Apple newsfeed and I thought, My gosh, this looks delicious. So the article is Laura Bush's easy pie tastes like a candy bar from Simply Recipes. I thought to myself, I want to know what Laura Bush's easy pie tastes like. It looks delicious. my mouth was watering. it looks like a cream pie, to be honest, Robbie. It looks so tasty. And apparently it's really easy. I've been wondering most of my adult life, what does Laura Bush's pie taste like. And now I have a really simple recipe. I'm gonna put this on our website so that people know how to make Laura Bush's pie. Rob (07:37) if we hadn't previously earned the explicit rating, I think we just David (07:44) I think our tens of users are gonna wanna get their mouths on Laura Bush's pie. when they see the picture, I mean graphic. you can almost taste Laura Bush's pie just looking at this picture. Rob (07:53) Uhhuh. Uhhuh. David (07:56) it looks sweet. Rob (07:56) it does. well manicure David (07:58) you gotta wonder how long did it take before George got to sample Laura Bush's Rob (08:02) Taste of the pie. David (08:03) pie? Rob (08:03) So for our listeners, I too saw this article on Apple News. I didn't click it. So I find this as an interesting personality projective that David not only clicked it, but then also brought it here. David (08:17) I have a feeling we're gonna be eating some of Laura Bush's pie later this weekend. Rob (08:22) Okay. David (08:22) it's an easy recipe, Rob. some pies take a lot of work to get your mouth on. But Laura Bush's is really easy Rob (08:29) easy. Okay. hey, moving from pies to jelly rolls. David (08:33) that is a great segue. this last week, Jelly Roll who is an American country music. Star, icon, something he Rob (08:42) I think he's moved into the icon range. He has name recognition across the board. I think lately, interestingly, he came out, had a interesting background story, criminal history, bad childhood, that kind of thing. remarkably talented singer. But what was striking about him was that he weighed like, I don't know, a million pounds, like five hundred plus. David (09:03) His stage name was Jelly Roll. I'm assuming it's a stage name. I don't know that for sure. I'm sure sure if I looked Rob (09:08) I I think David (09:10) it up, I don't think that ended up on his birth certificate. Now maybe it did. maybe he's from Alabama or something. Rob (09:13) well he may have officially changed. But in the last couple of years he has gone on a fitness journey, we'll call it, I'm sure with the help of GLP ones. And he's lost like three hundred pounds. And he looks fantastic. I'm impressed. I'm sure he's not well, I'm sure David (09:28) Except for the prison tats. Rob (09:31) he's regretting all the tats now because as it turns out, he's good. Could pass for an attractive man if it weren't for Elder Tats, but David (09:38) You kinda wonder, you know how you see somebody gets like a little Tweety bird tattoo and then, years later it turns into the version of Tweety Bird, the Doctor Jekyll Mr. Hyde episode where the bird is just like enormous and fucking weird looking. Do you Rob (09:51) Yeah. David (09:52) think do you think all of his tats just shrunk up? Rob (09:54) Yeah. David (09:55) Like he had some like badass shark somewhere that's now like a little guppy. Rob (09:59) You know, that's not thought about it, but yeah, something along those lines. David (10:02) This is this is what happens when my brain hits four Americanos. Rob (10:06) So where it became newsworthy this past week was that he guest hosts for Jimmy Kimmel. The fact that he chose to guest host for Jimmy Kimmel, I'm sure he has smart people working around him, his publicist, etc., probably knew that that was going to open him up to a certain amount of criticism. but the jokes that he made while he guest hosted were firmly aimed at Donald Trump. Now, at least there was an homage to hitting the other side, but he made a joke that I thought was funny. He said he reflected on the fact over the last two years he had lost 300 pounds and the punchline to the joke was I have lost an entire Donald Trump. and that most Americans wish they could too. So It's a good joke. It's a good joke. It David (10:49) No, no, come on. No, that is a good joke. Rob (10:53) it's a good joke. it was a well crafted joke. however has resulted in some pushback from the right. David (11:00) Yeah, it's weird. It's as if you say anything about Donald Jerry Curl Trump and you end up pissing off MAGA. But what I thought was really funny is the one thing that got publicly thrown out there was that there was some I'll call them tweets, from X From a Jimmy Patronas. And if you're sitting there, our tens of listeners wondering who the fuck is Jimmy Patronas? So did I. So did I. I had to look up Jimmy Patronas. Rob (11:29) Me too. had to Google it. Yeah. David (11:33) it turns out Jimmy Patronas is the Republican congressman out of the first district of Florida who. ended up winning a special election to replace Matt Gatz. Now, Rob (11:46) Yes. David (11:47) for those of you who don't remember who Matt Gatz is, and I honestly don't know if I'm saying his name right. I don't know that I've ever Is it Gates? I don't know. Whatever. He's so for Rob (11:52) Gates It's Gates. Yep. he was all over the place for a while. David (11:58) I never heard his name. I guess I just don't listen to a lot of news. So I didn't hear Rob (12:03) No. Yeah, but you immediately remembered his swarmy face, I mean David (12:03) I always I it always seemed like Gats in my mind. Gates. Of course you do because Matt Gates looks like the ASU Sun Devil. Rob (12:14) Yes. David (12:15) That's what he looks like. w which Rob (12:16) He does. David (12:17) actually which was apparently based upon Walt Disney, by the way. Rob (12:21) he actually looks like the target costume that they had to pull off the market. David (12:27) That's true. weirdly, he looks like a live action version of the Joker before he puts on his makeup. That's what he looks like. Rob (12:33) Yes. Yes. David (12:35) So Matt Gates is, famous now for being somebody so corrupt that he couldn't even get into the Trump administration. That's pretty impressive. that's a level of corruptness that is rarely seen. So Mm, chef's kiss to him. Rob (12:51) And just to remind everyone, Trump had toyed with nominating him for attorney general. David (12:57) so he had actually resigned from Congress because He was going to join Trump's administration as the attorney general before Trump's ultimate pick, which was the just wonderful and I mean top notch Pam Bondi, who still is there, right? She didn't get Rob (13:14) Wait, no, no. We lost her. David (13:14) That's embarrassing. That's embarrassing. I'm sorry. Anyway, so he's on pick three right now. All just top notch human beings. But Matt Gates was going to be his first selection, but he had a problem, apparently with drugs and underage girls. Allegedly. And so he was still under investigation by the House Ethics Committee, which never finished the report. because he had resigned, but his seat was open. And so Jimmy Patronas, this wonderful just Titan of a human being, won that special election. And so I was wondering, because I knew we would probably talk about this when I saw it. the tweet from Jimmy Patronas said, and I'm gonna pull this up because I don't wanna get fact checked. It said that Jelly Roll is one hundred percent not welcome to Florida's at some point he had said that Jelly Roll was never one of us. I was wondering after I saw this tweet that Jelly Roll's not welcome in his district any longer. And I wondered where is district one? where is Jelly Roll not allowed to go anymore? Where is he not welcome? is he not allowed to go to Disney? Is he gonna be staying away from Universal Studios, is he gonna not be able to hit Miami Beach or go watch a Tampa Bay Buccaneers game or something? Like what's going on? I got worried for Jelly Roll Rob. So I looked up where District One is I laughed out loud. it's the tip of the panhandle. Rob (14:28) just a tip, just for a second, just to see how it feels. David (14:31) I promise you I will have a special page on our website dedicated to this. just go to shrink the nation.com, find this episode once it posts. In that episode there will be a link to the zone that Jellyrolls gonna be missing out on. And actually I think this might be more devastating than missing out on Disney Rob (14:51) Yeah, he's gonna miss out on Florabama, Destin, Pensacola Beach. David (14:54) He's now Robbie, I've been there. Rob (14:57) Mm-hmm. David (14:57) I went here once. many years ago I was invited by a friend to come hang out at Orange Beach, Alabama. for about a week. We made the mistake of driving east into Florida. And what surprised me as you crossed the border from Alabama into Florida was that somehow I don't know how they did this, Robbie. Some sort of magic, but the Florida pain handle somehow out Alabama to Alabama. Rob (15:25) absolutely. David (15:26) It was the wildest thing I've ever seen. if you want to spend forty seven minutes on highway ninety eight traveling four miles, go there. it was like you crossed over and you could just hear the banjos playing. Couldn't believe Rob (15:38) if you've never been to Florida or the section of Florida, There's the Panhandle and then there's sort of southern Florida. I think most people think of southern Florida, which has much more of a Cuban vibe, different feel, than the panhandle. And the panhandle absolutely is not to disparage Alabama, but it's Alabama esque. David (15:57) no, it's not Alabama esque. I think Alabama is Florida panhandle esque from what I experienced. I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. Rob (16:04) Okay. David (16:05) when I saw this, I was thinking, Holy shit, Jimmy, if you're actually trying to punish this guy, don't ban him from the pain handle. Just force him to do a Saturday afternoon drive through Destin. Rob (16:16) Absolutely. David (16:16) That's the punishment. You go on Jimmy Rob (16:18) Yeah. David (16:18) Kimmel, you're coming here, buddy. we're gonna show you the punishment of not liking Trump. Rob (16:23) the interesting turn psychologically on this one is not that he got pushback. pushback's part of our politics, it's how the world works. it's not even that he maybe received some criticism. What I found interesting wasn't that there was a disagreement, it was that he was never one of them to begin with. So there was a time that he was embraced by the country culture, he was definitely part of them. And now all of a sudden, because he makes a joke, and guest hosts for Jimmy Kimmel, not only we disagree with you vehemently, you were never part of us. So he's been excised from the community. David (17:00) it's interesting if you understand that the same guy who said he ain't country never was, in August of twenty twenty six, in June of twenty twenty four, he was welcoming Jelly Roll to Gulf Coast Jam. they were really excited to have him. it's funny to me that politicians now use X so much to make these big statements. it's one of the platforms, where the receipts are right there. You could just go back in this guy's tweets and see that the same guy who was saying he was never country was excited about him being a country star just a few years ago. Rob (17:33) X is a cognitive dissonance machine, because it actually will show you the vicissitudes of someone's stance over time and how they hold these competing perspectives and feel very comfortable about it, he pulls it off. he apparently has no cognitive dissonance in relation to the clear conflict between what he said and how much he believed in jelly roll and was excited about jelly roll. The other interesting thing is is look up Jenny V. Petronas. He ain't country, brother. He ain't country at all. He looks like a good fella. David (18:07) you got Matt Gates' spot. So I mean they're really selective. Rob (18:11) Matt Gates looks like a good fella. David (18:13) Something tells me these guys don't handle of Florida. Rob (18:15) I do not think so. not only are they, I disagree with you, your stance isn't conservative enough, you were never one of us. That's David (18:23) Mm-hmm. Rob (18:24) the attack. it's deleting their history, removing them the community entirely. That's the interesting psychology on this, that it's not enough to just disagree. David (18:36) you're right. And it goes a couple of ways. And I think that's what I find fascinating about it is that it's not enough for you to disagree with them. You have to hate them. But at the same time, it's also not okay at all for you to disagree with me. Because if you do even a little bit, even on just one fine point, you're dead to me. You're dead to us. You were never one of us. Even after we embraced you, you were here. never happened. I'm gonna erase the history of your entire existence within this community and exile you Make you a pariah so that if anybody even kind of empathizes with you, they're dead to us too to make that a toxic thing to do. So there's no question, Rob (19:25) we're gonna revoke your identity. The identity, interestingly, is one of anger, it's not enough to disagree. you have to be angry about the disagreement. You gotta be angry David (19:34) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rob (19:37) at the other side, you have to hate the other side. that's problematic to say the least. That's that doesn't lend itself well to public discord because there's a couple of elements there that it ends up playing into. One is group identity. you have to hate the other side to maintain membership in your group, and we have a natural inclination to want to maintain our group identity, it does end up conflicting with the concept. The ability to have civil discourse that we can disagree without being disagreeable, we have a long history of trying to prioritize that, that it was the honorable thing to do. I can remember from my childhood something that I heard so often. that it went into the background, politicians would often reference my friend from the other side of the aisle when they were disagreeing. the important there was my friend from the other side of the aisle. When's the last time you heard someone say that? David (20:32) God years. Yeah, I can't no. Rob (20:33) I cannot recall. No, actually I can recall. I was at a conference, a mental health conference probably back in 2010. and there was a congressman, he was a conservative congressman, and there was a Democrat. Congressman. They both had co-sponsored some legislation related to substance treatment, I believe. And the older one kept referencing my friend from the other side of the aisle, They were clearly friends. They clearly disagreed on some core issues. They agreed on this issue. And because my friend from the other side of the aisle was a thing, they could come together. In this world, you don't see that. David (21:13) my mind is going in two different directions at the moment, Rob, because I'm I I'm trying to tie this to something else, Rob (21:18) I think you're being kind to yourself to say just two. I'm watching your face. It's it's going in multiple David (21:21) No, that's true. No, I know. Rob (21:24) directions. David (21:24) Yeah. the idea that they don't like disagreement, but they fucking love disagreement. you cannot disagree with me. We're gonna disagree with anything that isn't within our culture, within our community. But you don't disagree with me. How dare you? Rob (21:41) well it's because it's not disagreement anymore, it's contempt. David (21:45) Yeah. Rob (21:46) disagreement and contempt has become so interwoven in today's politics that you hold the other side in contempt, you don't disagree with them. They are contemptible. And if someone inside your group disagrees with you, they are contemptible. it is a zero tolerance policy, because it's not hey, we have different perspectives. It's you're contemptible. David (22:08) I think that's just it, is that it takes disagreement and it turns it into this all or nothing way of thinking. it's a very borderline perspective the way that I see it. it's black or white. I disagree with that perspective. I disagree with that piece a way for somebody to communicate that maybe they agree with some of it, you're able to parse out the fine details of a perspective and say that that particular thing doesn't necessarily align. So I disagree with that. But what they're doing is they're taking that wholesale. And saying if you disagree with any percentage of this, you're wrong. What is really fascinating, is that this was actually a big part of what lost the Democrats the last election. for the last several years, if you weren't one hundred percent on board with trans rights, you were getting exiled from that community and shut down. if you weren't saying I 100% agree with everything that you're saying, they were like, get the fuck out. And where did those people go? They went to a group that was willing to accept a piecemeal version. All you gotta do is agree with one percent of what we're saying. But now that they're in power. They're flipping the script. Rob (23:21) Absolutely. what we're getting at really more is group identity. groups regulate emotion, not just beliefs. it's a way for the members in the group to contain their emotions. groups provide identity, belonging, status, meaning, norms, and they develop their own emotional display rules. Families military units workplaces do this. there is an appropriate emotional display that these groups establish. in a situation like this when Jelly Rule comes out and makes a joke about President Trump is that people identified with him as part of the group. He had an emotional display that was contra to the group, which deregulates the group. So what do you do? you revoke his identity. He's no longer part of this group. He never was part of this group, in fact, in order to re-establish the group emotional integrity. And I'm gonna understate this. That's a problem, folks. when your group is so sensitive, so easily offended, when their emotions are so easily deregulated then you do really put yourself in a position in which your group becomes friable. it is way too sensitive and it cannot tolerate dissension on any level. and we certainly see that. And we saw it on the left before. in terms of like emotional displays, there was a point that if you didn't have your pronouns in your email signature box, it signaled to the group You weren't part of them. You weren't a member of them. You were one of those other guys. And there was contempt that flowed from that. David (24:51) As you're talking, I've been thinking about where does this stem from? And I don't know that this is the core answer, but I do think played a pretty big role. If we go backwards in time and we go to twenty twenty two. In October, Charlie Kirk said on his show, I can't stand the word empathy, actually. I think empathy is a made up new age term that it does a lot of damage. And then at some point was promoting this idea of toxic empathy and saying that he prefers sympathy. As a psychiatrist, to attack empathy and promote sympathy. it's just a non starter for me. really draws into this idea of we're not gonna just shut down disagreement. We're gonna shut down even being able to understand another person's perspective because that's what empathy is. It's not feeling sorry for somebody It's being able to put yourself into their shoes to at least have some understanding of where they're coming from. if your leadership, if your leadership is telling you to be unable to empathize, what you're telling them is they're not even worth considering. it's a really odd power move. That underscores, that Charlie Kirk in this movement was promoting what we're seeing today. he allowed this to exist where it is because we are essentially shutting off our community to any kind of idea outside that. And even the idea of thinking from their perspective, that's bad. That's a bad, bad, terrible thing. How dare you do that? We shouldn't be doing that. it's as ridiculous as saying affordability is a new word. Get the fuck out of here. Empathy is a new age term. Rob (26:29) Charlie Kirk was really gifted with rhetorical skills. And that particular skill in making this play on sympathy and empathy, and basically pulling away empathy. Empathy's not a thing, it's a made up word, basically was a way of sort of dehumanizing the other side, that we don't have to think about them as actual humans. we should not put ourselves in their position and try to understand what their perspective is. Empathy is an interesting thing to me. And I read a book, surprise, I read a book. David (26:59) Shocking. Rob (27:00) some time ago that I found striking. there's an argument to be made that empathy is actually a relatively new development in the human condition. moving backwards in time, there's an argument to be made that it was it actually became a widespread thing with the printing press. Because prior to the printing press, people really couldn't read about, understand the perspective of someone else. And now all of a sudden they had books that put you inside the head of a different human and gave you their perspective and their experience that historically, we're designed to live in small tribal units, about a hundred people, 150 maybe. and empathy was actually dangerous. You couldn't really empathize with the other because the other was a direct threat to you. So it was your family unit, your tribe, your unit you could empathize with, your tribe to a lesser degree, but still you could. Anyone outside, there was no empathy. Because again, survival was at play. So, I don't know. And, I didn't exist back then. believe it or not, I wasn't even in short pants back then. but I can't imagine that because empathy seems to be such a part of being a human. David (28:06) Yeah. It Rob (28:07) however I see the argument and I can understand it, and from Charlie Kirk's standpoint, in order to maintain the integrity of his group, yes, you want to do away with empathy. You do not want your group thinking about the other group, putting themselves in the other group's shoes and actually starting to understand or feel like it must be terrible to be in the immigrants role or a person of collar's role. it must be challenging. I get it, I understand. No, you want to maintain your group's identity, you want to keep them towing the line, maintaining the group's principles and belief structure because you don't want that emotional dysregulation. It is a very fragile thing, so there is a quote, surprise, everyone drink. That fervor is the defense of uncertainty. And that's kind of what we see with this jelly roll thing, that he created an inkling of uncertainty about who should we follow. it's breaking out now. we're at the point where it's like, I don't know, seven out of ten people. disagree with Donald Trump, do not feel like he's doing a good job, that group identity is starting to get anxious. And what we will probably see an increase in fervor before this plays out because they're getting more and more uncertain about where their allegiances lie and if their principles are really valid. David (29:30) first of all, I think it's a cop out to say that empathy doesn't exist, never existed before the printing press. Because it does exist. Rob (29:38) it existed. David (29:39) yeah, external from my immediate group, that might be something where you'd say, that wasn't a strong attribute that we had to be able to empathize with something outside of my group. But within my group, empathy definitely existed. Otherwise people would have spent all day just beating the shit out of people within their own group. There would have been no progress. To be able to work together within a community does require some level of empathy to understand what they're going through and not just take and take and take from within. So empathy has always existed. Rob (30:08) Yes. David (30:08) And it's not just sympathy. Rob (30:08) Just not widespread. David (30:10) just not to the point where you're thinking of cultures well beyond yours. But at the same time, in all fairness if you exist in a small tribe and you just don't have contact with external tribes, you're probably not going to have the opportunity to have a lot of empathy either. Rob (30:27) one of the benefits of our modern world is that we do have more opportunities to empathize. I have been troubled by this deeply over the last several days. the flood in Nepal is a great example Those videos of those poor people knowing death was coming and still running and then being crushed by a wall of water. that hit me in a really core place. I could empathize with the absolute terror of watching death coming for you. so, I bitch, I moan about the media and twenty four hour news cycles and Twitter and TikTok all the things, but the truth is the promise of the internet from way back when, there's some truth to it. It does give us that opportunity to to empathize. David (31:13) Yeah. Way to splash some cold water on the fire that is whining about jelly Rob (31:16) Mm-hmm. Yeah, nothing David (31:18) roll, getting uninvited to what is probably the greatest piece of our country. he's not Rob (31:23) N yeah. David (31:24) gonna be able to stand on the sandbar that is Crab Island, not an island, but a sandbar and Rob (31:30) Same bar. David (31:31) drink next to a pontoon Rob (31:31) Yeah. David (31:32) boat waist deep in water. He's just not gonna be able to do that now. Rob (31:35) Nothing conveys humor quite like abject terror, so you're right. I I apologize. So David (31:39) Yeah. I mean, think about that. I mean this yes, it was striking because what you're watching is people just snuffed out by this huge wave. Rob (31:47) Yep. Last moments. David (31:49) but when you think about the same abject terror that Jelly Roll probably had when he saw that Jimmy Patronus with no authority Rob (31:57) Mm. David (31:58) whatsoever has told him that he is no longer welcome and really no official ability to not allow him into let's be honest the Lord's playground. I mean this is Rob (32:10) Right. David (32:10) this is essentially Eden Rob (32:12) before the fall. Yeah. David (32:13) Florida District one Robbie it's the place to go. Rob (32:17) Yeah. David (32:18) if you've never experienced heaven on earth, I implore you, cross into Rob (32:22) I no, I concur. David (32:23) Florida District One and jelly roll is now I mean he's not he can still go. Like he could but he's not welcome. Rob (32:30) He's not welcome. they're gonna recognize him. tats give him away. David (32:33) like a wave of muddy water, his whole hope for the future was snuffed out in just one tweet. Rob (32:39) Christ, I've I feel like you're taking this metaphor really far. David (32:42) Port jelly roll he's probably crying right now, Rob. I mean i can you I know empathy is bad, but Rob (32:46) Right. Let me let me take your awful metaphor put some psychology on it. Ha hang on. Let me let me take this awful metaphor and save us right now. Right? So I'm gonna save us right now. So David (32:54) It's what I do. It's what I do. You're the asshole who brought in the fucking Nepal flood. I mean are you kidding me? Go. It's awful. No, it was terrible. Rob (33:02) I was I felt like it was something we all could empathize with. However, so i it this is not going to impact David (33:09) not as bad as jelly roll not being able to go Rob (33:11) Right. David (33:12) one of at least two McGuire's that exist in the same Rob (33:14) So David (33:16) district. Rob (33:16) this is not going to impact Jelly Roll in the slightest. and that's because he is beyond that group. His group identity does not protect him or save him or contribute really to his life. So duh, it's not a big deal to him. However, however, it David (33:31) Don't say that. Don't say that. This is devastating. This is devastating, Robbie. He's been robbed. Rob (33:35) Yeah, it it does not it does not impact him whatsoever. because he's he's protected from David (33:38) The life experience that you get Rob (33:40) it. David (33:41) by watching the blue Rob (33:40) All right, you have pulled David (33:42) angels Rob (33:42) you have pulled this joke as far as it can go. David (33:45) dip dangerously close over your heads Rob (33:48) Right. David (33:48) on the beach. where else can you get that experience? Rob (33:51) it's not going to impact him. However, threatening our group identity is designed to elicit anxiety in most of us. there's a fascinating study that was done by a a guy named Solomon Ash. and it was such a simple study. it basically pulled a group together, just a random group of people together. And the task that they were asked to do was ridiculously simple. All they had to do was compare the lengths of a group of lines. That's all they had to do. And they put several people in the group that were a ringer. And they kept answering those questions wrong. The idea wasn't can people visually see lines? The idea was what happens when someone's disagreeing with the group. And interestingly enough, the group fell in line and started to agree with the people that were put there to say the wrong answer. And it reflects just how important group identity is to us. That you can look at those lines and you can think. This is bullshit, but I don't want to be the asshole standing alone. And it says something important about us that group identity is critical to our sense of well-being. Jelly Roll's not threatened by this. So his sense of well-being is not touched by not being able to go to destin. But in general, particularly say the identity of being a conservative or being MAGA. Or being a progressive. When you threaten that identity, it does get to something core. It does elicit an emotion. and that's what we saw with him. He threatened the group identity. So they had to smash back. And it wasn't enough just to say, he's got an opinion. it is not only is he wrong. He really was never part of us. So group identity is maintained. David (35:35) I find it Not surprising, but the group is getting smaller and smaller. So people who actually agree with this group, it's becoming less and less. There's as you said, like seven out of ten people don't agree with this war. We're now six months into a war that was supposed to be four to five weeks military action. and people don't like that. So it mentioned earlier I'm trying to go into games and talk to just regular people, and I've actually had a lot of people be really pissed off that I'm even asking if they think we should be in this war now. the overwhelming response has been, no, war's fucking terrible. We should never have been in this thing in the first place. and so I don't think people are really happy with this community, with this group. In order to maintain what we have, we really need to turn this into an us versus them. Rob (36:24) Absolutely. and that's the benefit of contempt. so in terms of group identity, contempt allows us to not just be better than, we're above. It's not that we're right, we're above the other group. We are morally superior to the other group. and contempt ends up becoming the currency of group loyalty. So a moderate would say, I think they're mistaken. A loyalist would say, I think they're evil. A super loyalist would say they are traitorous, child grooming, Marxists, fascist communists. and what we'll probably see, if I'm making predictions, and certainly we can check my accuracy down the line, is that this group will actually start to demonstrate more contempt in an effort to maintain that group identity. as they move forward. which, again, terrible understatement, is not good for public discourse. David (37:16) It's honestly not good for the group that's doing it. the lesson learned by the Democrats was that if you build a coalition to win something, you can't walk around just slicing off huge parts of your coalition because they slightly disagree with you. I mean, that's the whole point of building a coalition. But I think this is the lesson that we keep learning in politics over and over again, is that you need to build a coalition to gain power. And then you apparently just want to solidify that coalition, but you do that by breaking off huge swathes of it through your inability to tolerate any kind of disagreement. Rob (37:50) Yeah. and for that limited group, it's operant conditioning. this is Skinner stuff, but you have a behavior, you have a consequence, and then you have an altered behavior. So for those that are inside the group, the demonstration is that if you disagree with the group or you fail to demonstrate sufficient amount of contempt, you can be excised from the group. And this isn't new. the idea of being excised from the group goes back as far as human history. the worst thing you could do would be kicked out of the tribe. you were sent out into the wilderness to die. So we've been doing this from, time immemorial. But the conditioning that we're seeing inside that little group is that they will have to demonstrate more and more and more contempt in order to maintain that. The other side to that is is what you just said. they're slowly slicing off demographics as they go because if you don't demonstrate enough contempt, you're going to be excised. Not only were you not one of us, you never really were one of us. And the group will get smaller and smaller. I do think we're in that reorganization period and it's still early. MAG has been a thing for now for ten years. So it has a certain zeitgeist a hold on the public, but we are definitely seeing a reorganization of political allegiances. that I think will play out in an interesting way. I do think on the tail end of this, down the line, we're gonna see a radical shift in what the group identity, both groups, both sides, right and left, what their identity looks like and what their demographic makeup is. David (39:22) I think we're used to watching the pendulum swing back and forth when it comes to the culture of America, and it just it seems like the pendulum swings further and further each time. But what I find just astonishing is how utterly inept MAGA has been at truly capturing the swing of this pendulum you don't expect it to start swinging back this soon. the last year and a half has felt like a fucking eternity if you're not in that movement. But it's actually been rather quick. And what really strikes me is the fact that Donald Jabba the Hut Trump could fuck this up so bad. it seems like the greatest enemy of Donald Jalapeno Papa Trump is himself. he can't get out of his own fucking way. we saw this during COVID response. All he had to do was shut his big fucking mouth. And say nothing and let the experts do their thing. But instead, he had to make it about himself. All he has to do right now, all he's had to do for the last year and a half was just ride the wave of prosperity that was already existing. our country economically was doing phenomenal. so He wanted to run on immigration. So what did he do? he got Congress to block a bipartisan deal that would have really improved our immigration, All he had to do when he came in was get them to pass the deal that they had already agreed to pass and they were just holding up. But instead, he comes in and makes everything about himself and makes things so bad. They even the people who have nothing but this obsessive love for him are starting to run away in droves. And again, rather than embracing those people and bringing them back into the center, what are they doing? They're cutting them off bit by bit. Now, I think where the Democrats are gonna really fuck this up is that they do this whole ha ha ha, we told you so thing, rather than embracing those people and saying, Come to our side. Rob (41:17) Yep. Yep. David (41:19) you and I can look at this and we can see all these mistakes that are being made on both sides. And I think a lot of people can. Why is it such a fucking struggle for these different groups of leaders to see where they're completely torching their own ability to maintain control or to regain control? Because at this point, the midterms, the midterms is for the Democrats to lose. They'll have to rip failure out of the clutches of victory in order to lose this. And yet it Rob (41:44) Yes. David (41:45) seems like they're trying to by even getting into these pissing matches with the DSA over a couple of people who are quite reasonable if you listen to some of them. Rob (41:54) It's in group, out group stuff. it's as old as humankind. so you're right. if they are playing this smart, they would be embracing those who are being sliced away from the MAGA group. And there are certainly lots of being sliced away. They're being impacted economically, they disagree with the war, they disagree with the immigration policy, whatever. David (42:15) They disagree with Natalie Harp. Rob (42:17) so they're being sliced away. would embrace them. However, also have to please their in-group. And there is a group that is equally fervent on that other side that does want to point their finger and say, ha ha ha, we told you so. They want their moment. So for so long, the political wins were such that they were wrong. Now they believed they were right. they believed they were above the other, they held the other side in contempt. now they get to actually show their contempt. So the leaders of that group have to please them and hopefully try to bring in the wayward sons and daughters who are getting sent out east of Eden from the MAGA group. And that's a tough thing navigate. you have to show some contempt but be welcoming. And I don't know if that's really possible. ultimately what we really need a leader that can transcend that and can speak beyond contempt. I don't know if they exist in this world right now just the forces. what wins on Twitter, contempt. What wins on TikTok, contempt. what wins in the social media world, it's contempt. So all the forces that bring self-aggrandizement is contempt, whereas what we need is a George Washington who said in his farewell address way back in seventeen ninety-six that the greatest risk to our democracy was partisan bickering. so we need someone like that and I don't know if they exist. David (43:46) Well, I think you could do it, Robbie, but speaking of pleasing Rob (43:49) Mm-hmm. David (43:50) slices gonna plug once again Laura Bush's easy pie. So for those of you out there who've not had Laura Bush's pie I think you need to check it out and get a slice of it because it is pleasing. Rob (44:01) I'm impressed you were able to take the mishmash of what I said and bring it right back to Laura Bush's pie. I'm impressed. David (44:08) if you can't bring Laura Bush's pie into a conversation, are you even doing on a podcast? right. Prescriptions, Robbie? Rob (44:15) Sure, I've got a prescription. So we need to notice when disagreement has quietly become discussed. Contempt feels useful because it gives you certainty, superiority, and permission to stop listening. That is precisely why it's dangerous. You do not have to respect every idea, you do not have to compromise on every principle. But if you need the other person to be stupid or evil or beneath you in order to hold your position, you're no longer defending an argument. You're defending your identity. David (44:43) I like it. Mine is gonna be keep empathy and boundaries in the same sentence. I understand why you're angry doesn't require therefore your behavior is acceptable. The alternative to cruelty is not surrender. And also, everyone Get out there and have some Laura Bush's easy pie. you will be nothing but pleasured go have some Laura Bush's easy pie. see what all the rage is about. See what George has been enjoying all these years. Rob (45:05) yeep. my understanding is it tastes like a candy bar. David (45:08) that's what I'm told. All right. Shrengthenation dot com. Check out this episode. see what we come up with for jelly roll. it's gonna be my mind funny. If you want to know what I think is funny, Rob (45:20) you just sat through an hour of it, folks. David (45:21) probably like forty five minutes. hit up our merch store. Dr. Robbie's Alpha Male Academy shirt. I'm wearing one right now. They are awesome. Rob (45:28) He is David (45:29) I love this shirt. Everybody graduates Magna Coomb loudly. that's about it. So hit subscribe, like, check out our ridiculous website, play our video games, record your high scores. That's what we're looking for. Rob (45:41) Yeah, and didn't you make it easier to access the video games? David (45:45) I did. I made it actually easier to access everything. our website is pretty free and open. You can hit it shrinkthenation.com, And that's it. So thank you everybody for sticking around. Hopefully you enjoyed this episode. And if not, go to our YouTube and whine at us a little bit. Apparently that's what people like to do. Rob (46:00) if not, we hold you in contempt. David (46:02) If you disagree with even one thing I said throughout this entire episode, fuck you. Fuck you Rob (46:06) Yeah, exactly. David (46:07) so hard. And I hope you don't get any Laura Bush's pie. Rob (46:11) Okay. David (46:11) That's it. Robbie, I'm gonna cue up this music and we are out.